Toz 35 vs Hammerli 106

Kilby · Post by **Kilby** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:22 pm

I've owned a couple of 35's, but never shot the 106. I'm considering which to buy. 35's run slightly more from what I've seen. I solicit informed opinions on which to select. Thanks in advance to all.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:18 pm

The TOZ are crude; the Hammerli not.

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:51 pm

Rover wrote:The TOZ are crude; the Hammerli not.

Only to the untrained eye.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Well, I'm a blind old fool; WTF do I know.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:20 pm

considering people are still shooting Toz-35's I think that says a lot for it. If your decision is between a 35 and 106 then I think the 35 would be a better choice. If you are looking at a 35 or a newer Hammerli or Morini then you have more to consider. The 35 is a mostly hand made pistol but shoots really good and continues to be a competitive pistol. They do not cost as much as the others on the market and they are no longer made.

If you just want a FP to shoot for fun and just want one and you are on a budget then I would look for a Toz. I have only shot a Toz and some say they are forgiving and may not be as frustrating to shoot as a Morini.

If I were just starting out I would be inclined to pick up a Morini simply based on parts availability and it is the other main FP you see the top shooters using.

shaky hands · Post by **shaky hands** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:05 am

A Russian coach Anatoliy Piddubniy, oft-cited on TT (see here http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=36339) is on record (unfortunately only in Russian, http://www.shooting-ua.com/books/book_45.htm) saying that in his opinion Morini pistols have become an impediment to the free pistol discipline. His point is that nowadays FP scores are in the 560s while in the Toz-dominated 1970-80s they were in the 570s. The guy was a coach of Alexander Melentiev, so he likely knows his stuff.

Muffo · Post by **Muffo** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:00 pm

Rover wrote:The TOZ are crude; the Hammerli not.

The TOZ shoot good scores; the Hammerli not.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:44 am

Well, that might be for a lack of trying. In its time (early 50s) before the TOZ, the 10x Hammerlis were the benchmark. Nowadays, the lack of spare parts and grips alone would keep me away from shooting a 10x. The TOZ really only has two well made components, the barrel and the trigger, but that is all it takes.

Muffo · Post by **Muffo** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:10 am

What else do you need in a free pistol

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:18 pm

If you want a new one buy a morini.
If you want a used one buy a morini or a toz depending on your budget.
Those two are still pretty much what top shooters use.

Kilby · Post by **Kilby** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:42 pm

Many thanks to all who took the time to post. I shot a Toz extensively in Europe in the 70-80's, and my scores were low 60's. I was a bit surprised to find current scores to be in the same vicinity. My Toz35 back then had been "remanufactured" by Waffen Franconia, then further modified by Linbrunner. My second was built by Don Nygord and both were fine pistols. All the ones I come across now are straight Russian products, so I don't have confidence they will shoot as well, and I don't know the gunsmiths tweaking them anymore. I'll have to ponder a bit more, but again, thanks to all.

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Kilby wrote: My Toz35 back then had been "remanufactured" by Waffen Franconia, then further modified by Linbrunner. My second was built by Don Nygord and both were fine pistols.

Do you remember what changes did they do?

Kilby · Post by **Kilby** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:11 pm

Franconia disassembled the pistol when they received it from Russia. They deburred and polished all parts, essentially a "fit and finish" job. At the time, they did that with every 35. Linbrunner, who lived in Hochenheim, was noted for his replacement trigger systems on the GSP's and FWB pistols. He replaced the entire trigger system for the Toz, but I can't remember specifics as all adjustments were made by him (required a two-hour drive to get to his home/shop, but worth every penny.)

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:17 pm

Thanks

Muffo · Post by **Muffo** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:49 pm

Kilby wrote:Franconia disassembled the pistol when they received it from Russia. They deburred and polished all parts, essentially a "fit and finish" job. At the time, they did that with every 35. Linbrunner, who lived in Hochenheim, was noted for his replacement trigger systems on the GSP's and FWB pistols. He replaced the entire trigger system for the Toz, but I can't remember specifics as all adjustments were made by him (required a two-hour drive to get to his home/shop, but worth every penny.)

Interesting he replaced the trigger. Mine has a couple of modes done to it and I've never felt a better trigger, not that they don't exist. This is how the top was designed it was ment to be taken to an armourer or gunsmith and finished off, same with the grips they were designed so a grip maker could fit it to the shooter

Greg Derr · Post by **Greg Derr** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:43 am

The TOZ takes a licking and keeps on ticking. If you ever looked at the spring mechanism in the 106 you would never buy one.

Kilby · Post by **Kilby** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:55 am

Old friends stay with you -- I bought a Toz. Thanks folks for the input.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:08 pm

"If you ever looked at the spring mechanism in the 106 you would never buy one."

That's funny....I've found the springs in the TOZ to be pure crap. I've sold dozens of American springs to TOZ users. (No, don't ask.)

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:25 pm

The only spring I have needed to replace on my Toz in the last 15 years was the firing pin spring. It just looses its power over time being compressed all the time. The S&W rebound is a perfect replacement.

BEA · Post by **BEA** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:30 am

I shot a TOZ 35M for years with no issues. I can't say anything about mine was crap. They are not pretty, but the parts that need to be hard are and mine worked every time. I acquired a spare trigger and other parts along the way because I had the opportunity but they were never needed. I kept mine pretty clean, adjusted the trigger the way I liked it and left it alone. I also lowered the firing pin when not in use to ease the tension. It seems to me that most people who had frequent trouble were the ones chasing a score by constantly making adjustments, never being satisfied. The short coming to them is probably is the trigger, if you like a very light weight. They cannot equal the electronic trigger in terms of weight reliability. However, I like a trigger weight in the 25 to 30 gram range and mine was extremely reliable and durable. They are very shootable and as forgiving as a FP can be. I highly recommend them if you can start off with one that has not been tampered with to the point of unreliability.

TargetTalk