The Texas state 4-H shooting sports office just released this info for one of the largest 4-H matches in Texas
Newly reformatted for 2013! Shooting Sports Extravaganza will include: scoring workshop for coaches/parents, and social
activities for youth. Scores and rankings for all events will be recorded and posted, however, in efforts to educate and encourage
beginning shooters, no awards will be presented. All shots and score rankings are for educational purposes (and bragging rights)
only.
This unbelievable if there are no awards then way even keep score!!
Unbelievable 4-H shooting match changes
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
What a backwards step. Sounds very similar to a policy adopted by many of our councils trying to promote 'equality' and non competitiveness. Winning competitions is motivational to winners and losers and presenting awards is highly motivational. Thankfully here, most councils went back to common sense policies, at least in some areas.
Rob.
Rob.
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bpscCheney
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
Texas 4-H is an interesting program.
They are the push behind keeping the "Track Meet" type scoring disaster that they forced on 4-H nationals many years ago.
In fact they decided to change all the rules w/o checking with the national committee two years ago and got into some hot water.
We (VC4HSS) are a 4-H program, but I myself have no desire to send kids to 4-H Nationals due to the track meet scoring they use in the overall results. I'd rather spend the money to take the kids to the 3-P JOs, the NRA Airgun, and/or the USA Shooting National Championships.
If parents and kids want to go, I don't discourage it, but I don't promote it either.
It's what happens when you get the academia involved. They are so concerned about some kid who has not practiced or put in the effort getting their feelings hurt, they ignore the ones who put in hundreds of hours practicing.
Don't get me wrong ... there are some great junior shooters in Texas 4-H ... they are commended for putting up with what they do.
They are the push behind keeping the "Track Meet" type scoring disaster that they forced on 4-H nationals many years ago.
In fact they decided to change all the rules w/o checking with the national committee two years ago and got into some hot water.
We (VC4HSS) are a 4-H program, but I myself have no desire to send kids to 4-H Nationals due to the track meet scoring they use in the overall results. I'd rather spend the money to take the kids to the 3-P JOs, the NRA Airgun, and/or the USA Shooting National Championships.
If parents and kids want to go, I don't discourage it, but I don't promote it either.
It's what happens when you get the academia involved. They are so concerned about some kid who has not practiced or put in the effort getting their feelings hurt, they ignore the ones who put in hundreds of hours practicing.
Don't get me wrong ... there are some great junior shooters in Texas 4-H ... they are commended for putting up with what they do.
I actually think that the folks running the Texas state programs (the different disciplines) have a good idea of what they are doing ... in terms of the technical aspects of the sport. I just don't agree with their views of what "competition" is and how they implement that those views.#1texan wrote:This is what happens when you have people running the state program that have no idea what they are doing. I know at lest the kids I coach are not going to want compete if they can't win anything
They are well organized (much more than I can say for my state) and look forward to placing well in the Nationals.
By this time of year, I think they have already selected their national teams ... here in NM we select ours only a few weeks before the nationals very much limiting the number of teams we send.
They also determine their teams with an "all star" approach, gathering the top shooters from across the state, while here in NM we are restricted by our NM 4-H Foundation to only using county teams, which again limits our potential participation .... if a county team wins, but only 2 shooters can go, that county has to pass the spot to the next place team ... usually with too little time for that next team to organize the trip.
It's not that they don't know what they are doing ... they just have a very different philosophy (than I do).
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TexasShooter
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:39 pm
- Location: Texas
#1texan, please complain to the state office. I plan to get a letter off to them soon about this as well.
There are several things they have done the last few years that just cut the legs out from under those of us who are working our tails off coaching at the local level.
For example, 6-8 months to score postal matches? Now they have moved the deadline for the postal up by a month. Maybe if enough of us complain, they will hear us.
There are several things they have done the last few years that just cut the legs out from under those of us who are working our tails off coaching at the local level.
For example, 6-8 months to score postal matches? Now they have moved the deadline for the postal up by a month. Maybe if enough of us complain, they will hear us.
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little pellet
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:58 am
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: Unbelievable 4-H shooting match changes
It seem from what they are saying that the only difference will be that they won't be giving prizes. Scores and rankings will be posted so you will still know who the top shooters were.
Sounds more like a cost cutting exercise than anything else.
Sounds more like a cost cutting exercise than anything else.
This would be fine for senior (i.e. non-junior) shooters. Does anybody really care about the prizes at competitions below National Championships anyway. It's a shame for juniors though. It doesn't matter what the value of a prize is; you can normally see them grow in stature when it is presented.#1texan wrote:Scores and rankings for all events will be recorded and posted, however, in efforts to educate and encourage beginning shooters, no awards will be presented. All shots and score rankings are for educational purposes (and bragging rights)only.
This is an interesting discussion topic because it seems 4-H, in relation to shooting sports, has a tendency to move towards the skill development/educational aspect and away from the competition components. I'm not sure if this is a directive, or to promote youth development or what. This can be seen with the injection of STEM learning components and now apparently the proposed Texas changes.
Its hard sometimes for shooting sports coaches and athletes who are involved in the "sport" aspect to understand the reasoning. I certainly have a very difficult time with the thought of removing the "competition/award" portion of the shooting sport.
Its also easy for those involved in NRA/USA Shooting etc to overlook the significance that the State Tournament plays in the 4-H shooting sports process. David mentioned "does anyone really care what happens below National Championships anyhow" - and I think the answer is a resounding YES. National rules for 4-H differ from State Rules which can differ from County level. My shooters aim for State - that is their goal. To get on a state stage, with the best in the state and find out how they rank in shoulder to shoulder competition. But the perspective comes from a rural County group. We dont have shooting clubs and opportunities like those in larger cities. So when they go to state it is a huge deal to them and they take it serious. They also take pride in their awards and recognition. Perhaps its a small town thing, but our kids were recognized in the paper and will be part of a great achievement night celebration for 4-H.
As a 4-H leader for me the character development component is most shown in how the youth handle themselves in the face of adversity or victory.
Did I take that far enough off subject?
Its hard sometimes for shooting sports coaches and athletes who are involved in the "sport" aspect to understand the reasoning. I certainly have a very difficult time with the thought of removing the "competition/award" portion of the shooting sport.
Its also easy for those involved in NRA/USA Shooting etc to overlook the significance that the State Tournament plays in the 4-H shooting sports process. David mentioned "does anyone really care what happens below National Championships anyhow" - and I think the answer is a resounding YES. National rules for 4-H differ from State Rules which can differ from County level. My shooters aim for State - that is their goal. To get on a state stage, with the best in the state and find out how they rank in shoulder to shoulder competition. But the perspective comes from a rural County group. We dont have shooting clubs and opportunities like those in larger cities. So when they go to state it is a huge deal to them and they take it serious. They also take pride in their awards and recognition. Perhaps its a small town thing, but our kids were recognized in the paper and will be part of a great achievement night celebration for 4-H.
As a 4-H leader for me the character development component is most shown in how the youth handle themselves in the face of adversity or victory.
Did I take that far enough off subject?
Did I take that far enough off subject?
In a word NO!
As a shooting sports leader myself I fully understand were you are coming from. However this needs to be tempered with the fact that most of the top shooters in the state don't waste their time with the 4H program. Some of the kids on our junior team turn in a 4H project book with all the documentation of national matches and curent national ranking with a detailed log of practice sessions only to be beat out by someone that makes a better looking exibit poster. I would like to know what to say to them other than 4H is a joke?
This isn't an attack on 4H, I wonder if I want to keep working with jumiors under the 4H program as it is stuctured.
As a shooting sports leader myself I fully understand were you are coming from. However this needs to be tempered with the fact that most of the top shooters in the state don't waste their time with the 4H program. Some of the kids on our junior team turn in a 4H project book with all the documentation of national matches and curent national ranking with a detailed log of practice sessions only to be beat out by someone that makes a better looking exibit poster. I would like to know what to say to them other than 4H is a joke?
This isn't an attack on 4H, I wonder if I want to keep working with jumiors under the 4H program as it is stuctured.
As a 4-H project leader, I always have to remember that 4-H shooting is not specifically about the competition ... in fact here is the header from our state "Green Top":
*****
I also feel that as there are competitive events, that those who wish to put in the time required to be competitive, I will take them as far as I'm able.
(Some of my younger kids just want to come in & shoot off the bench ... that's cool w/ me)
All that said ... I really like to work with the competitive side of things and 4-H only goes so far. In New Mexico, we have county qualifier matches
--- For Novices and Juniors, to go to the District match
--- For Seniors to go to the State and possibly the National match
That is 2 matches per year .... not nearly enough.
Those that want to compete, we use 4-H as an umbrella to cover our competitive activities ... CMP 3-P Air, NRA Air & Smallbore and USA Shooting Air & Smallbore, and for some NRA Intercollegiates.
The nice thing is that you (as a leader & coach) can do as much as you want to (or have time for). If you are there for the kids when you say you will be (there have been times I'm the only one that shows up) I think you will have a successful program.
We practice air Tues & Thurs, and for those who show the maturity, and desire Smallbore on Saturday.
Do I tell my agent all that I'm doing? ... nope. But if they try and cut us back the parents and shooters howl.
I think you also have to let the kids explore other sports and opportunities w/o making them feel that they are abandoning you or "the team". I've had many shooters go off and try something else and then return. They are kids, but treat them as young adults as much as you can.
Just remember that 4-H shooting is not necessarily about competing, it's about having fun. When the kids want to give up a rifle event for state (they can only enter 2 events) and want to go shoot shotgun ... "because it looks cool", let 'em, and ask to see their shoulder at the end of the day.
Now, if you know enough about a competition to run one of these things, then you have a "duty" to try and make the competition as conforming to the rules as you can. It took me a few years of pushing to get our state to use national rules in the state competition ... I kept saying that we were shortchanging the kids by sending them to the Nationals completely unprepared to be embarrassed ... that you just can't do to a kid.
Our 1st year at Nationals at the silhouette event ... one state team showed up to the silhouette match expecting to shoot B-27 type targets.
I was embarrassed for those kids and furious at the coach who brought them completely unprepared. If you are going to compete, you have to have the kids prepared.
It can't be fun when you allow a kid to be embarrassed.
Oh boy, I'm getting off topic. In short, make it fun for them & you ... however you structure your program.
That's my job as a 4-H leader.NEW MEXICO 4-H RIFLE PROJECT
Objective: To introduce you to the fundamentals of the art of shooting a rifle; to teach shooting safety and good sportsmanship, to teach an
appreciation for the outdoors.
*****
I also feel that as there are competitive events, that those who wish to put in the time required to be competitive, I will take them as far as I'm able.
(Some of my younger kids just want to come in & shoot off the bench ... that's cool w/ me)
All that said ... I really like to work with the competitive side of things and 4-H only goes so far. In New Mexico, we have county qualifier matches
--- For Novices and Juniors, to go to the District match
--- For Seniors to go to the State and possibly the National match
That is 2 matches per year .... not nearly enough.
Those that want to compete, we use 4-H as an umbrella to cover our competitive activities ... CMP 3-P Air, NRA Air & Smallbore and USA Shooting Air & Smallbore, and for some NRA Intercollegiates.
The nice thing is that you (as a leader & coach) can do as much as you want to (or have time for). If you are there for the kids when you say you will be (there have been times I'm the only one that shows up) I think you will have a successful program.
We practice air Tues & Thurs, and for those who show the maturity, and desire Smallbore on Saturday.
Do I tell my agent all that I'm doing? ... nope. But if they try and cut us back the parents and shooters howl.
I think you also have to let the kids explore other sports and opportunities w/o making them feel that they are abandoning you or "the team". I've had many shooters go off and try something else and then return. They are kids, but treat them as young adults as much as you can.
Just remember that 4-H shooting is not necessarily about competing, it's about having fun. When the kids want to give up a rifle event for state (they can only enter 2 events) and want to go shoot shotgun ... "because it looks cool", let 'em, and ask to see their shoulder at the end of the day.
Now, if you know enough about a competition to run one of these things, then you have a "duty" to try and make the competition as conforming to the rules as you can. It took me a few years of pushing to get our state to use national rules in the state competition ... I kept saying that we were shortchanging the kids by sending them to the Nationals completely unprepared to be embarrassed ... that you just can't do to a kid.
Our 1st year at Nationals at the silhouette event ... one state team showed up to the silhouette match expecting to shoot B-27 type targets.
I was embarrassed for those kids and furious at the coach who brought them completely unprepared. If you are going to compete, you have to have the kids prepared.
It can't be fun when you allow a kid to be embarrassed.
Oh boy, I'm getting off topic. In short, make it fun for them & you ... however you structure your program.
In Colorado I hear similar sentiments as caveman since I have youth that do 4-H but also are involved in NRA Regionals, USA Shooting PTO's, JOSC, etc. and it is true several exceptional shooters dont participate in 4-H due to one reason or another (usually because Colorado 4-H doesnt follow any std rulebook ie NRA/USA/CMP), but several of the states top shooters do 4-H as well. The most common reason is that 4-H shooting keeps them active in the summer when our USA Shooting is on a break (Usually May-Sept).
Being from a rural county, the PTO opportunities are difficult, where we often have to drive 3-4 hours one way to attend. While not insurmountable, it is a deterrent which often families that arent in a position to make that commitemt pass on those opportunities. So 4-H then becomes the focus of competition. Our neigboring counties all hold invitational matches, so we usually get 3-4 invitationals plus a county qualifier in a 2 month period.
As a 4-H leader I see it as an opportunity to reach out to the youth of our community, and introduce them to a sport that may not know exists. Much as jhmartin, as long as they are involved in "shooting sports" be it pistol, shotgun, rifle, muzzleloading, etc they are still engaged in the sport. Like the old saying, cream rises, and we see kids that have a passing interest, sustained interest or active interest. I use the USA Shooting passport program as a bridge across to competitive shooting to those that are interested.
As for projects and project books what can you say? In our County shooting sports is a two thrust program 1) the youth compete at the county qualifier to goto state and 2) the youth have to finish a record book and stand alone project. The youth can qualify for the State shoot based on achievement independently of how their "project" places and vice versa. The incorporation of projects and record books really is the tempering so that it is not competition only driven. From the outside it may seem rediculous, but from working within the system, I think our kids are better off for it, being more responsible and detail oriented with their record keeping, which often bleeds through to diary keeping and being organized.
Being from a rural county, the PTO opportunities are difficult, where we often have to drive 3-4 hours one way to attend. While not insurmountable, it is a deterrent which often families that arent in a position to make that commitemt pass on those opportunities. So 4-H then becomes the focus of competition. Our neigboring counties all hold invitational matches, so we usually get 3-4 invitationals plus a county qualifier in a 2 month period.
As a 4-H leader I see it as an opportunity to reach out to the youth of our community, and introduce them to a sport that may not know exists. Much as jhmartin, as long as they are involved in "shooting sports" be it pistol, shotgun, rifle, muzzleloading, etc they are still engaged in the sport. Like the old saying, cream rises, and we see kids that have a passing interest, sustained interest or active interest. I use the USA Shooting passport program as a bridge across to competitive shooting to those that are interested.
As for projects and project books what can you say? In our County shooting sports is a two thrust program 1) the youth compete at the county qualifier to goto state and 2) the youth have to finish a record book and stand alone project. The youth can qualify for the State shoot based on achievement independently of how their "project" places and vice versa. The incorporation of projects and record books really is the tempering so that it is not competition only driven. From the outside it may seem rediculous, but from working within the system, I think our kids are better off for it, being more responsible and detail oriented with their record keeping, which often bleeds through to diary keeping and being organized.
4H Program
I agree with you guys about what you’re doing with your programs and commend you for it.
I am just venting some of my frustration with 4H. You guys may have heard about Jerry Sanduski and his atrocities. Well this has caused Penn State extension to implements new guide lines for all the leaders in the state. Most of the changes I support and they make sense but one of them could be the death of my program. Let me explain….
My program is the opposite of Mr. Martin’s “we use 4-H as an umbrella to cover our competitive activities”; I use the clubs’ junior team’s practice range time (Mon., Wed., and Fri.) to work with the 4H kids. The kids on the team give me one firing point to use to work one on one with new 4H shooters. This in the past has worked great because after a 4H kid completes a project (For me this has little to do with scores or marksmanship but all about safe handling and conduct on the range as well as introduction to basic fundamentals.) those kids that want to move on can practice and try to make the team (you have to replace your sub-juniors from somewhere). I do this as a 4H program to expose non 4H shooters to the opportunities that 4H has to offer and to give 4H members a venue to do a shooting sports project (not just riflery but shotgun and air pistol).
OK, the potential kiss of death, we can no longer to do any 4H function without at least two 4H leaders present even if the parents are present. This means I have to ask one of the other junior team coaches (which they would do if I asked) to go through the 4H screening and interview process or get another leader to come to “babysit”. My question is why go through all this for an organization that puts up more obstacles than provide support? I know there’re ways that I could “fly under the radar” but is that what I want to teach the kids?
I know the answer but gee whiz how hard can 4H make volunteering get!
Am I off topic now?
I am just venting some of my frustration with 4H. You guys may have heard about Jerry Sanduski and his atrocities. Well this has caused Penn State extension to implements new guide lines for all the leaders in the state. Most of the changes I support and they make sense but one of them could be the death of my program. Let me explain….
My program is the opposite of Mr. Martin’s “we use 4-H as an umbrella to cover our competitive activities”; I use the clubs’ junior team’s practice range time (Mon., Wed., and Fri.) to work with the 4H kids. The kids on the team give me one firing point to use to work one on one with new 4H shooters. This in the past has worked great because after a 4H kid completes a project (For me this has little to do with scores or marksmanship but all about safe handling and conduct on the range as well as introduction to basic fundamentals.) those kids that want to move on can practice and try to make the team (you have to replace your sub-juniors from somewhere). I do this as a 4H program to expose non 4H shooters to the opportunities that 4H has to offer and to give 4H members a venue to do a shooting sports project (not just riflery but shotgun and air pistol).
OK, the potential kiss of death, we can no longer to do any 4H function without at least two 4H leaders present even if the parents are present. This means I have to ask one of the other junior team coaches (which they would do if I asked) to go through the 4H screening and interview process or get another leader to come to “babysit”. My question is why go through all this for an organization that puts up more obstacles than provide support? I know there’re ways that I could “fly under the radar” but is that what I want to teach the kids?
I know the answer but gee whiz how hard can 4H make volunteering get!
Am I off topic now?
Re: 4H Program
Nope ... if you are trying, you are going the wrong direction!caveman wrote:I know the answer but gee whiz how hard can 4H make volunteering get!
Am I off topic now?
The biggest impediment to 4-H projects is the lack of (qualified & vetted) volunteers. This is probably the same in any other youth activity.
Either that or 4-H burning them out. Working with the kids is the easy (and most fun) part.
Parents, County & State agents ... they are not all bad, but the less time I'm dealing with some of them, the better.
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TexasShooter
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:39 pm
- Location: Texas
Re: info
Look for this:av8trs wrote:I have looked for the information. Where did you find the information regarding the changes to program?
2012-2013 Texas 4-H Natural Resources Important Rules & Procedures, Event Synopsis, and Tentative Schedule of Events-Updated September 17, 2012
On this site: http://texas4-h.tamu.edu/shootingsports
Here is the document:
http://texas4h-tamu-edu.wpengine.netdna ... _20121.pdf
or
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzVRTV ... lE2TUJ2czg
4H
When I took the class that 4H mandated for shooting leaders. The one thing that the instructor told us from the outset that the word "competition" was forbidden. Their were a good half members of the class that agreed with this politically correct concept. Privately, the instructor didn't agree with the concept, but that he had his marching orders from above. The 4H has just succumbed to another politically correct concept.
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TexasShooter
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:39 pm
- Location: Texas
Re: 4H
So let me get this right. It is good and highly encouraged to compete in animal shows where the winners get tens of thousands of dollars (or more) with steers raised in air conditioned stalls. But it is bad for the same kid to compete in an event where their result is based entirely on the work they did themselves, as opposed to having lots of help from mom and dad (and the hired hand).randy1952 wrote:..the word "competition" was forbidden..
Obviously I am just not clear on the concept.