ISSF rule change from 1st January 2013

[Sparks]

We've been here before. Where is the evidence to suggest that clothing prevents injury or shooting causes it?

It was posted on the ESC website last time I saw it. Drop them an email, ask for a citation, or dig through the wayback machine.

Personally, I can't feel the skin from my right knee to about half-way up my right thigh. That's anecdotal (and the plural of anecdote is not data), but it suffices to bias my thinking on the whole "injury prevention" topic.

As to the "c'mere and shoot without kit, I'll bet you can't, hur, hur, hur" line (which we usually abbreviate in Europe by producing a ruler and inviting the other idiot to unzip for comparison, because that's all he's saying anyway), this was shot without shooting trousers and with the jacket fully unfastened (so all I get from it is the shoulder pad):



Any ISSF shooter can do that without kit for a few shots without injury.
Very, very. very. very few shooters (and I don't count myself amongst them) could do that without kit for a full match and all the daily training you need at international level to shoot that full match at the international standard. So unless the idea is to make the international circuit off-limits to amateurs, this is a bad idea.

[Volker]

Even I as a newbie who hasn't fire a single pellet from the gun he just bought can see the risk of injury due to the position that you need to hold. And if they should change the format to elimination heats e.g.10 shooters, 10 shots (including decimals), first 2 come to the next round plus x of the highest scorers, yes, that would also remove a lot of strain from the shooters body and could possibly be done without jacket and trousers... But the risk of injury would remain in training, right !? You still would need to fire ten thousands of shots to even become good enough to attend.
Oh, while we are at it to remove protective gear from sports... Lets take it away from other Olympic sports as well.... Weight lifting ? Nah, they mustn't use their supports... If you can't rip 800pounds without injuring yourself you should switch to...hmmm... Chess maybe ?

[jhmartin]

The current jackets and pants support the shooter.

Slings and gloves do not give any support to the shooter, but may (sling) support the rifle, which is OK. Gloves are way thicker than needed to prevent pinching. A batting or golf glove will stop slipping from perspiration, and if too thin one can go to a leather work glove (perhaps with thin lining), as found at most hardware stores. Cheap and effective. Often free because the fingers on the primary use hand (right for most) wear out, and left gloves are lurking all over.

I'll have to think about kneeling rolls.

....

Those who complain about the cost of shooting clothing should welcome the removal of it in favor of "street clothes" it seems to me.

Slings do indeed offer support to the shooter ... that is the whole purpose of them. Shoot your 160 shot prone match w/o it.

In any case, support is not my issue ... prevention on injury is.
I'm not a competitive shooter, I'm a junior coach. My "job" is to teach the kids the sport for the long term and do do it safely.

Slings, kneeling rolls, gloves all prevent injury. As also do jackets and pants that have some (not inordinate) stiffness.

As such with the rules in place AND even the rules proposed, I feel comfortable in bringing youth into a sport where I'm able to make sure they are not injured. If I felt different, I'd take them over to the trap & skeet fields.

It would be really nice to come across a custom gunmaker that could replicate a 1912 or 1914 that would be a lot lighter than what Anschutz produces for the equivalent price. In some (not all) aspects we must adapt to what is available on the market (and please, don't try and compare a 1903 to a 1914).
I also know that it is not all driven by what is available.

ISSF has determined what the rules have been in the past so that we are where we are now ... all legal and acceptable, it has been gradual.

What this discussion is all about, when you get to the "meat of the matter", is that ISSF continually operates in a "royalty" mode issuing decrees to "the little people" (as they see them).

All of the technical discussions could be taken up with a period of comments if they would stand down from just issuing their thought of the day.

Again some of the questions to ask ...

WHAT is a Vibration reduction System?? Even they cannot explain it yet. Or maybe just don't feel that they need to let the little people know, we'll find out at equipment check. (Honestly, I think they mean some sort of electronic gadget)

WHAT is the purpose of trashing many of the jackets with this Left Side Panel rule?

WHY are they going nutso over boots/shoes when they have already decreed "Walk normally or be disqualified"? It has been explained to ISSF folks walk that way to make the items last longer ... they can walk normally in an international match, I certainly don't give a rip if they try and make a $250 pair of boots or shoes last longer by walking goofy on my practice range ... I just tell them don't do it at JOs or Nationals.

WTH on the SFZ???? ????!!!! ???? I've made arguments before that SFZ is done in other sports, but was corrected by others in those other sports, the same event (exactly .. in distance & format) ... Shoot a 60 shot Air final or a 3x20 Womens final, I don't think too many would have issue with SFZ.

WHY the reduction in time limits? For TV????? Give me a break ... shooting will NEVER be broadcast to the degree that other sports are. After all .... it is SHOOTING .... very non-PC in this day & age. No bikinis or guys with 6-pacs to stare at. Trying to get more shooting shown on broadcast channels is a pipe dream.

Most of the issues would go away if the courtesy was given to the athletes (primarily), coaches, and vendors in the sport of a discussion period rather than a "Here ya go ... new rule of the day!" executive order method.

[Guest]

WHY the reduction in time limits? For TV????? Give me a break ... shooting will NEVER be broadcast to the degree that other sports are. After all .... it is SHOOTING .... very non-PC in this day & age. No bikinis or guys with 6-pacs to stare at. Trying to get more shooting shown on broadcast channels is a pipe dream.

Bikinis now we are talking but they offer support!!!

[randy1952]

Has anybody noticed that cylinders older then 10 years from their labeled date are now illegal in the new general technical rules? We have junior clubs in our state that have cylinders that are older then the kids using them. These combined rule changes could bankrupt most small clubs. The two years extension the new draft CMP 3P Air Rifle rules will do little to makeup for the financial damage all these new rules could cause.

[Richard H]

That's why individual organization will have to exercise some good sense when drafting their own rules. This is the stuff that will begin the divergence of the sport.

That's not really new, the only new part is they will now check them at international events and not let them be used.

[Grzegorz]

Recently, the Polish Shooting Sport Federation decided to introduce in advance these "new rules" to the program of so called "qualification competitions 2012" (regular AR and AP for seniors and juniors, shooters of the National Team including). In total 4 competitions. We base on the official statements but also on some "unofficial" file that has been spread via Internet world wide with details about finals, etc. :-)

We treat this as a test case. Results, opinions, notes will be collected and send to the ISSF. First competition is planed for October 18-21. I will let you know results of the test, of course.

[RobinC as guest]

Has anybody noticed that cylinders older then 10 years from their labeled date are now illegal in the new general technical rules? We have junior clubs in our state that have cylinders that are older then the kids using them. These combined rule changes could bankrupt most small clubs. The two years extension the new draft CMP 3P Air Rifle rules will do little to makeup for the financial damage all these new rules could cause.

Randy
This is not in the new rules doc of Approved rules for 2013 which is the doc everyone is up in arms about, unless there is another one been released!
This ten year cylinder thing is a manufacturers requirement in their hand books and websites and was near enough put to bed some while ago, the ISSF rule used to require the shooter to comply with the manufactureres guidance but was changed to being the shooters responsibility for the safety of the gun and cylinder, I think when some lawyer pointed out that by checking and passing an under 10 year cylinder the equipment control was taking legal responsibility for its safety and integrity. As far as I'm aware it is now not checked.
Robin

[Sparks]

Has anybody noticed that cylinders older then 10 years from their labeled date are now illegal in the new general technical rules? We have junior clubs in our state that have cylinders that are older then the kids using them. These combined rule changes could bankrupt most small clubs. The two years extension the new draft CMP 3P Air Rifle rules will do little to makeup for the financial damage all these new rules could cause.

Randy
This is not in the new rules doc of Approved rules for 2013 which is the doc everyone is up in arms about, unless there is another one been released!
This ten year cylinder thing is a manufacturers requirement in their hand books and websites and was near enough put to bed some while ago, the ISSF rule used to require the shooter to comply with the manufactureres guidance but was changed to being the shooters responsibility for the safety of the gun and cylinder, I think when some lawyer pointed out that by checking and passing an under 10 year cylinder the equipment control was taking legal responsibility for its safety and integrity. As far as I'm aware it is now not checked.
Robin

To be fair though, the potential damage if a cylinder failed would be so great that I find it a bit hard to object to a rule like that. I mean, if the choice was to get shot by my air rifle or to have the cylinder fail while shooting, I think I'd rather get shot, you'd be likely to have the lesser injury!

Replacement cylinders run to what, about 300 euro these days? Over ten years, that's less than a penny a day. It could get bloody awkward if manufacturers change cylinder designs though, and you find you can't source a replacement...

[caa028]

Has anybody noticed that cylinders older then 10 years from their labeled date are now illegal in the new general technical rules? We have junior clubs in our state that have cylinders that are older then the kids using them. These combined rule changes could bankrupt most small clubs. The two years extension the new draft CMP 3P Air Rifle rules will do little to makeup for the financial damage all these new rules could cause.

Randy
This is not in the new rules doc of Approved rules for 2013 which is the doc everyone is up in arms about, unless there is another one been released!
This ten year cylinder thing is a manufacturers requirement in their hand books and websites and was near enough put to bed some while ago, the ISSF rule used to require the shooter to comply with the manufactureres guidance but was changed to being the shooters responsibility for the safety of the gun and cylinder, I think when some lawyer pointed out that by checking and passing an under 10 year cylinder the equipment control was taking legal responsibility for its safety and integrity. As far as I'm aware it is now not checked.
Robin

To be fair though, the potential damage if a cylinder failed would be so great that I find it a bit hard to object to a rule like that. I mean, if the choice was to get shot by my air rifle or to have the cylinder fail while shooting, I think I'd rather get shot, you'd be likely to have the lesser injury!

Replacement cylinders run to what, about 300 euro these days? Over ten years, that's less than a penny a day. It could get bloody awkward if manufacturers change cylinder designs though, and you find you can't source a replacement...

(300 x 100) / (365 x 10) = 8.219

[Sparks]

(300 x 100) / (365 x 10) = 8.219

And I thought you couldn't mathematically prove if I'd had my morning coffee or not :)

BTW, I checked and the cost is closer to €230.

[muffo as guest]

Good to have a morini. They have A 20 year operating date stamped on the cylinder

[randy1952]

Has anybody noticed that cylinders older then 10 years from their labeled date are now illegal in the new general technical rules? We have junior clubs in our state that have cylinders that are older then the kids using them. These combined rule changes could bankrupt most small clubs. The two years extension the new draft CMP 3P Air Rifle rules will do little to makeup for the financial damage all these new rules could cause.

Randy
This is not in the new rules doc of Approved rules for 2013 which is the doc everyone is up in arms about, unless there is another one been released!
This ten year cylinder thing is a manufacturers requirement in their hand books and websites and was near enough put to bed some while ago, the ISSF rule used to require the shooter to comply with the manufactureres guidance but was changed to being the shooters responsibility for the safety of the gun and cylinder, I think when some lawyer pointed out that by checking and passing an under 10 year cylinder the equipment control was taking legal responsibility for its safety and integrity. As far as I'm aware it is now not checked.
Robin

To my knowledge there has never been an airgun cylinder that has exploded because of a faulty manufacture. The only cylinder I am aware of that had a failure and probably one of the reasons these changes are even contemplated was cause somebody used a wrench on a cylinder when they put it onto an air tank and in doing so the cylinder gauge came off the cylinder. You can never right a rule that's going to make a difference for people's stupidity. When I was in the navy the government would spend millions of dollars designing systems and printing out rules on how to exactly operate the systems thinking they would make them idiot proof. Well the government has always underestimated the resourcefulness of these idiots and the capacity of lawyers and politicians from squeezing money from the government. As a further example the ladder industry spends millions of dollars putting warning stickers on their ladders and in the manuals and it hasn't stopped people from misusing the product such as trying to jump the ladder while they are on top of the ladder instead of getting down and moving the ladder. These people are the reason why products are becoming more expensive as now lawyer fees have to be built into the cost of making and selling a product.

[RobStubbs]

To my knowledge there has never been an airgun cylinder that has exploded because of a faulty manufacture. The only cylinder I am aware of that had a failure and probably one of the reasons these changes are even contemplated was cause somebody used a wrench on a cylinder when they put it onto an air tank and in doing so the cylinder gauge came off the cylinder. You can never right a rule that's going to make a difference for people's stupidity..

I'm afraid your knowledge is incomplete as that is incorrect. Anschutz issued a recall a few years ago on their cylinders because of failures. If you search on here you'll also find someone posted pictures of an exploded faulty cylinder.

Rob.

[randy1952]

To my knowledge there has never been an airgun cylinder that has exploded because of a faulty manufacture. The only cylinder I am aware of that had a failure and probably one of the reasons these changes are even contemplated was cause somebody used a wrench on a cylinder when they put it onto an air tank and in doing so the cylinder gauge came off the cylinder. You can never right a rule that's going to make a difference for people's stupidity..

I'm afraid your knowledge is incomplete as that is incorrect. Anschutz issued a recall a few years ago on their cylinders because of failures. If you search on here you'll also find someone posted pictures of an exploded faulty cylinder.

Rob.

The incident that I am referring to happened long before Anschutz issued that recall. It happened here in the states and it involved a FWB Cylinders. Yes, I had forgotten about the faulty cylinders that Anschutz had made, but those accidents as far as I can tell where manufacturing defects, were a ten year date stamp probably wouldn't have helped unless the dealers or manufacture just let the cylinders just sit on the shelves for ten years.

[FredB]

To my knowledge there has never been an airgun cylinder that has exploded because of a faulty manufacture. The only cylinder I am aware of that had a failure and probably one of the reasons these changes are even contemplated was cause somebody used a wrench on a cylinder when they put it onto an air tank and in doing so the cylinder gauge came off the cylinder. You can never right a rule that's going to make a difference for people's stupidity..

I'm afraid your knowledge is incomplete as that is incorrect. Anschutz issued a recall a few years ago on their cylinders because of failures. If you search on here you'll also find someone posted pictures of an exploded faulty cylinder.

Rob.

Both of the above comments totally miss the point. The 10-year "rule" (or recommendation?) has nothing at all to do with faulty manufacture. As was the case with Anschutz, any issue of faulty manufacture will in almost all cases manifest itself well before 10 years.

The 10-year "rule" is a totally arbitrary deadline; if there are any data to support this particular time limit, I am unaware of them. What little information we have - and this has been already discussed at great length on TT - indicates factors such as metal fatigue (from repeated fillings) and metal corrosion (possibly from interior moisture) are potential causes of cylinder failure. And these factors have little if anything to do with 10 years, or any other time period. Any 10-year "rule" would be the equivalent of checking granny's underwear at the airport.

FredB

[jhmartin]

Any 10-year "rule" would be the equivalent of checking granny's underwear at the airport.

5 years ago this would have been funny, sadly, this is now routine.
Welcome to 1984 (a few years late)

[robf]

If you make your own cylinders, can you just stamp them yourself?

Or is there some copyproof and logged coding system?

So many of the ISSF rules assume mass produced items...

[taz]

Actually in Europe it is not allowed to make your own cylinders without having the conformity assessed by a Notified Body.
The initial certification of the pressure cylinders (considering most if not all are made in and sold in Europe) falls under directive 1999/36/EC (Transportable Pressure Equipment Directive) and must be marked with the π symbol and the notified body number.

Periodic inspection (which includes but is not limited to pressure testing) for pressure vessels is mandated by each country's legislation.

The periodic inspection is mandated by the above directive as well as ADR and RID (Directives 94/55/EC and 96/49/EC) respectively.
All of the above directives have been incorporated in the legislation of the EU countries.
Contrary to what is a common belief there is no lower limit concerning the volume under which certification is not required.

[RobStubbs]

Fred,
My response may have missed a point you had in mind but it wasn't intended to cover it. I was merely answering a previous post.

The 10 year rule probably came about because that's the date stamped on most manufacturers cylinders. Where they got that date from I have no idea, but cynics might suggest a financial incentive was involved. The last few times I've been at equipment control at major matches, cylinders have not been date checked. Perhaps they were more keen on checking footware.

Rob.