What we are talking about is the nature of the process by which these new rules have been drafted and the nature of the process by which they will be approved.
ISSF rule change from 1st January 2013
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
-
Guest
Re: Rule changes
new issf rules
Vibration Absorbing Devices refer:
From a reliable source we are told that the ISSF is referring to devices similar to image stability systems as found on modern cameras and binoculars...nothing of concern!
The word description was a tad clumsy and misleading in my opinion.
From a reliable source we are told that the ISSF is referring to devices similar to image stability systems as found on modern cameras and binoculars...nothing of concern!
The word description was a tad clumsy and misleading in my opinion.
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
So, having expended untold hours, funds and goodwill you are suggesting that shooters tell their NGBs that they do not want to be selected for World Cups and Continental Championships.JSBmatch wrote:One way to get our message across is for all shooters to boycot ISSF regulated matches in 2013.
World Cups, Continental & World Championships and Olympic Games are what elite shooters live for. It isn't going to happen.
-
Simkovitch
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:31 pm
- Location: Israel
I'm about to send my comments to the rifle rules.
If anyone has something to add/change, please let me know.
You can ignore the part about the vibration reduction...
Safety flags – Will they be provided for the shooters?
Scoreboards –
Internet Service –
Dress code –
Jury Identification –
Shoe flexibility –
Medical Taping –
Control Card Replacement –
Retesting Clothing –
Sighting Shots 10m and 50m – What about sighting after malfunctions?
Malfunctions 10m 50m 300m – Why take away the extra time? The match time is shorter anyway.
Ties –
Rifle Rules:
One rifle – can be changed after a malfunction?
Vibration reduction – Please explain: Do weights count as vibration reducing? Rubber bedding? Extension tubes? Barrel tuners? Air rifle absorbers (present on most top level target rifles)?
Rifle weights – No weights allowed behind the cheek piece? What about cheek pieces with thread for weights at the end of them? Or on the butt plate guide rods?
Butt Plate Hook – This relates to the top part of the butt plate? Does this change apply to free rifles?
Chest rests – Is a wooded stock still allowed to touch he right chest? Why not in metal stocks?
Clothing thickness –
Clothing Stiffness –
Clothing Stiffness and Thickness Testing – Why not change the measuring devices?
Shooting shoe flexibility – no change
Special Shooting Shoes - What makes a shoe "special"? What is the reason behind prohibiting the use of such undefined shoes in prone events?
Inner soles – Are they to be tested separately from the shoe itself?
Normal walking test – What is the point of this "test"? Qualification rounds are not even recorded by video. And Shooters barely walk during a match.
Shoe Sole Contour – This is a great hassle for manufacturers and athletes alike. In the end, it will lead to box shaped shoes like the Sauer models.
Jacked left side panel – Again, a major hassle for manufacturers, athletes and clubs that will need to replace most jackets. Athletes will need to wait months for their jackets to be replaced/repaired.
Jacket sleeves – no change
Trouser belt loops – Why 7 loops? Some of the bigger shooters may need more than that.
Trouser pads – Seat patches were rendered useless since the "chair rule". So a replacement panel is a welcome change. Take into account that many shooter will appear with their old trousers with the padding cut off. This may not be aesthetic for a few years.
No Trousers for Prone – Like the shoes: What is the reason behind prohibiting the use of shooting trousers in prone events? Shooters will have to use training pants with shooting jackets. It will look strange.
Heel pad – 10mm compressed? I think it's too much.
Rifle rests – Standing in the shooting position or standing normally?
Time limits –
If anyone has something to add/change, please let me know.
You can ignore the part about the vibration reduction...
Safety flags – Will they be provided for the shooters?
Scoreboards –
Internet Service –
Dress code –
Jury Identification –
Shoe flexibility –
Medical Taping –
Control Card Replacement –
Retesting Clothing –
Sighting Shots 10m and 50m – What about sighting after malfunctions?
Malfunctions 10m 50m 300m – Why take away the extra time? The match time is shorter anyway.
Ties –
Rifle Rules:
One rifle – can be changed after a malfunction?
Vibration reduction – Please explain: Do weights count as vibration reducing? Rubber bedding? Extension tubes? Barrel tuners? Air rifle absorbers (present on most top level target rifles)?
Rifle weights – No weights allowed behind the cheek piece? What about cheek pieces with thread for weights at the end of them? Or on the butt plate guide rods?
Butt Plate Hook – This relates to the top part of the butt plate? Does this change apply to free rifles?
Chest rests – Is a wooded stock still allowed to touch he right chest? Why not in metal stocks?
Clothing thickness –
Clothing Stiffness –
Clothing Stiffness and Thickness Testing – Why not change the measuring devices?
Shooting shoe flexibility – no change
Special Shooting Shoes - What makes a shoe "special"? What is the reason behind prohibiting the use of such undefined shoes in prone events?
Inner soles – Are they to be tested separately from the shoe itself?
Normal walking test – What is the point of this "test"? Qualification rounds are not even recorded by video. And Shooters barely walk during a match.
Shoe Sole Contour – This is a great hassle for manufacturers and athletes alike. In the end, it will lead to box shaped shoes like the Sauer models.
Jacked left side panel – Again, a major hassle for manufacturers, athletes and clubs that will need to replace most jackets. Athletes will need to wait months for their jackets to be replaced/repaired.
Jacket sleeves – no change
Trouser belt loops – Why 7 loops? Some of the bigger shooters may need more than that.
Trouser pads – Seat patches were rendered useless since the "chair rule". So a replacement panel is a welcome change. Take into account that many shooter will appear with their old trousers with the padding cut off. This may not be aesthetic for a few years.
No Trousers for Prone – Like the shoes: What is the reason behind prohibiting the use of shooting trousers in prone events? Shooters will have to use training pants with shooting jackets. It will look strange.
Heel pad – 10mm compressed? I think it's too much.
Rifle rests – Standing in the shooting position or standing normally?
Time limits –
Rules change
I think the elite shooters will have grumbles but have no real problems with any of this even though much of it is stupid and un neccessary, the serious issue which the Columbians have raised and I totaly agree with is the problem at grass roots which the ISSF have as usual totaly ignored and I suspect have no care or interest in what so ever.
With out the grass roots the elite will not appear. I work primarily with the grass roots at club level to try to develop new young shooters, we scrimp, beg and borrow to get equipment for often penniless young people to use, we take them to county and then national level.
This change will render all the equipment owned by the club or the individuals non compliant at a stroke, we can not afford to replace it, and in some areas alteration will be impossible or complex.
If this is implimented at the British Air Championships in February it will decimate the rifle entry and /or produce some frayed tempers and upset at equipment control.
I don't suppose any jackets or boots or trousers will be sold now with this cloud hanging over our heads, dealers and manufacturer's stock will become non compliant, so in this time of reccession the ISSF have near enough put a stop on some aspects of the business surrounding our sport!
Its a sad situation that the ISSF has become fixated with rules and not the best interest of the sport.
Robin
With out the grass roots the elite will not appear. I work primarily with the grass roots at club level to try to develop new young shooters, we scrimp, beg and borrow to get equipment for often penniless young people to use, we take them to county and then national level.
This change will render all the equipment owned by the club or the individuals non compliant at a stroke, we can not afford to replace it, and in some areas alteration will be impossible or complex.
If this is implimented at the British Air Championships in February it will decimate the rifle entry and /or produce some frayed tempers and upset at equipment control.
I don't suppose any jackets or boots or trousers will be sold now with this cloud hanging over our heads, dealers and manufacturer's stock will become non compliant, so in this time of reccession the ISSF have near enough put a stop on some aspects of the business surrounding our sport!
Its a sad situation that the ISSF has become fixated with rules and not the best interest of the sport.
Robin
Re: Rule changes
When the grass roots are destroyed there is no bottom to look down on! The elite then become worthless.Anonymous wrote:What we are talking about is the nature of the process by which these new rules have been drafted and the nature of the process by which they will be approved.
Re: new issf rules
So the google data that I mentioned way back on page one seems to be the development the rule setters are trying to short stop. Relatively easy to stabilize a camera or binocular image, I would think stabilizing the mass of a pistol or rifle would be a more complicated and energy intensive proposition. If we see it turn up in any form it would be good for us real old guys!mmp wrote:Vibration Absorbing Devices refer:
From a reliable source we are told that the ISSF is referring to devices similar to image stability systems as found on modern cameras and binoculars...nothing of concern!
The word description was a tad clumsy and misleading in my opinion.
Dr. Jim
-
C.Opalewski
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:44 pm
- Location: Vicksburg, Michigan
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
The ISSF Administrative Council is due to meet 13th November so would imagine the rules will be issued shortly thereafter.C.Opalewski wrote:Does anyone have an idea of when these revised rules will be announced as official? I would assume that it would have to be before January 1 in order to allow sufficient time for competitors to comply.
I have to agree with Robin.
The elite world class shooters of today were once grass roots shooters of yesterday. The grass roots shooters of today could well end up in that elite group in the future.
The ISSF cannot afford to ignore the grass roots shooters and their struggles. They need all the help they can get from their own national shooting organisations. The ISSF should be helping and promoting not hindering grass roots development. Some of these supposed rule changes could wipe out large numbers of aspiring grass roots club shooters who are probably on tight budgets and could be the stars of tomorrow.
The elite world class shooters of today were once grass roots shooters of yesterday. The grass roots shooters of today could well end up in that elite group in the future.
The ISSF cannot afford to ignore the grass roots shooters and their struggles. They need all the help they can get from their own national shooting organisations. The ISSF should be helping and promoting not hindering grass roots development. Some of these supposed rule changes could wipe out large numbers of aspiring grass roots club shooters who are probably on tight budgets and could be the stars of tomorrow.
Most of these new rules are quite irrelavent and will make little difference or no difference to performance, but will require new equipment or dramatic changes. The only petition is over the finals, that is just a procedure that will effect a very tiny majority, we need protest over the issues that will effect all of us.
The measuring for small garments is unfair to small shooters, they already suffer from the badly engineered shoe bender that favours bigger sizes.
The boot changes will require every one to find an old fashion shoe repairer to get the sole trimmed, it will also make all dealer and manufacturers stock useless or that will have to be modded and then they will be "not new."
Trousers will be the same, current stock will require the patch removed making them "not new"
The most significant change is the jacket left side panel seam rule, this casual rule, is massive, it will make most current jackets illegal, and not practical or possible to alter! Has any one on the rulemakers looked at how the seam can be removed? To get any tailoring over the hips it requires a horizontal seam at the waist, women will be very difficult to tailor into a decent fit with out this. I've already looked at many jackets with regard to this and none comply, they will all require replacing to comply, and then the manufacturer will need to totaly redesign the jacket, this is total madness, and what for?
This will off course make all current jackets in stock at dealers or manufactureres worthless!
Every shooter must complain to his national body to put pressure on the ISSF to abandon these changes, that will have more effect than complaining to the ISSF (although we should do that as well) as they have already demonstrated by keeping this quiet up to only 10 weeks before implementation that they are not interested in us or our views, but it is our sport not theirs so get on that email and protest.
Robin
The measuring for small garments is unfair to small shooters, they already suffer from the badly engineered shoe bender that favours bigger sizes.
The boot changes will require every one to find an old fashion shoe repairer to get the sole trimmed, it will also make all dealer and manufacturers stock useless or that will have to be modded and then they will be "not new."
Trousers will be the same, current stock will require the patch removed making them "not new"
The most significant change is the jacket left side panel seam rule, this casual rule, is massive, it will make most current jackets illegal, and not practical or possible to alter! Has any one on the rulemakers looked at how the seam can be removed? To get any tailoring over the hips it requires a horizontal seam at the waist, women will be very difficult to tailor into a decent fit with out this. I've already looked at many jackets with regard to this and none comply, they will all require replacing to comply, and then the manufacturer will need to totaly redesign the jacket, this is total madness, and what for?
This will off course make all current jackets in stock at dealers or manufactureres worthless!
Every shooter must complain to his national body to put pressure on the ISSF to abandon these changes, that will have more effect than complaining to the ISSF (although we should do that as well) as they have already demonstrated by keeping this quiet up to only 10 weeks before implementation that they are not interested in us or our views, but it is our sport not theirs so get on that email and protest.
Robin
I am not a Luddite: my computers, Ipad, phones and car are less than 12 months off ‘state of art’…
…but I can remember:
- Back in ‘the day’, while there was clothing specifications, neither rifle jackets or trousers could stand up by themselves (I still have my old rifle jacket in the cupboard, but it must have shrunk over the last 40-50 years), and a shooter could walk ‘normally’ in shoes/boots worn at competition
- a time when a pistol jacket cost many weeks wages and looked like a S&M corset. This trend died of natural death when it was realised that a shooter in a polo shirt and slacks could achieve the same scores
- (somewhat more recently) the first time I saw rifle shooting trousers and a shooting jacket that could stand up, unsupported
- the ripple of embarrassed laughter (and even sniggers) when rifle Finalists come on to the field of play at Olympics.
- the protests the last time the ISSF tried to limit rifle clothing, when at the eleventh hour some coaches suddenly realised that the techniques and procedures they were promoting were harmful to any shooters without an exoskeleton
- supervising (as EC Jury and as EC Jury Chairman) the testing of rifle clothing at ISSF competitions and noticing the construction of rifle clothing that appeared to have only one purpose – to circumvent the applicable rules.
- the (comparatively recent) introduction of the boot/shoe flex machine, when most shoes/boots still passed despite promoting a gait designed by/for the Ministry of Funny Walks
Far be it for me to even suggest that some rifle coaches and clothing/boot manufacturers have brought this on themselves...
Bummer (euphemism), ostracised again.
…but I can remember:
- Back in ‘the day’, while there was clothing specifications, neither rifle jackets or trousers could stand up by themselves (I still have my old rifle jacket in the cupboard, but it must have shrunk over the last 40-50 years), and a shooter could walk ‘normally’ in shoes/boots worn at competition
- a time when a pistol jacket cost many weeks wages and looked like a S&M corset. This trend died of natural death when it was realised that a shooter in a polo shirt and slacks could achieve the same scores
- (somewhat more recently) the first time I saw rifle shooting trousers and a shooting jacket that could stand up, unsupported
- the ripple of embarrassed laughter (and even sniggers) when rifle Finalists come on to the field of play at Olympics.
- the protests the last time the ISSF tried to limit rifle clothing, when at the eleventh hour some coaches suddenly realised that the techniques and procedures they were promoting were harmful to any shooters without an exoskeleton
- supervising (as EC Jury and as EC Jury Chairman) the testing of rifle clothing at ISSF competitions and noticing the construction of rifle clothing that appeared to have only one purpose – to circumvent the applicable rules.
- the (comparatively recent) introduction of the boot/shoe flex machine, when most shoes/boots still passed despite promoting a gait designed by/for the Ministry of Funny Walks
Far be it for me to even suggest that some rifle coaches and clothing/boot manufacturers have brought this on themselves...
Bummer (euphemism), ostracised again.
David I know it's a foreign concept but yes sometimes you do have to stand up to actually defend what you believe is right. Actually in shooting it would be relatively easy for the shooters to start organizing their own events and boycott the ISSF events. Unlike some sports the organizing body doesn't own the venues. But alas it will never happen because there are always individuals that would be willing to sell themselves out for a moment in the sun. In the end it's a sport which for the most part doesn't put food on very many participants table. If it gets too stupid people will just move on and find another pastime.David Levene wrote:So, having expended untold hours, funds and goodwill you are suggesting that shooters tell their NGBs that they do not want to be selected for World Cups and Continental Championships.JSBmatch wrote:One way to get our message across is for all shooters to boycot ISSF regulated matches in 2013.
World Cups, Continental & World Championships and Olympic Games are what elite shooters live for. It isn't going to happen.
Spencer you've been around long enough I really would think that you know that the only reason they walk funny is so that they don't flex the sole, I've yet to actually see a pair of shoes or boots that can't flex.Spencer wrote:I am not a Luddite: my computers, Ipad, phones and car are less than 12 months off ‘state of art’…
…but I can remember:
- Back in ‘the day’, while there was clothing specifications, neither rifle jackets or trousers could stand up by themselves (I still have my old rifle jacket in the cupboard, but it must have shrunk over the last 40-50 years), and a shooter could walk ‘normally’ in shoes/boots worn at competition
- a time when a pistol jacket cost many weeks wages and looked like a S&M corset. This trend died of natural death when it was realised that a shooter in a polo shirt and slacks could achieve the same scores
- (somewhat more recently) the first time I saw rifle shooting trousers and a shooting jacket that could stand up, unsupported
- the ripple of embarrassed laughter (and even sniggers) when rifle Finalists come on to the field of play at Olympics.
- the protests the last time the ISSF tried to limit rifle clothing, when at the eleventh hour some coaches suddenly realised that the techniques and procedures they were promoting were harmful to any shooters without an exoskeleton
- supervising (as EC Jury and as EC Jury Chairman) the testing of rifle clothing at ISSF competitions and noticing the construction of rifle clothing that appeared to have only one purpose – to circumvent the applicable rules.
- the (comparatively recent) introduction of the boot/shoe flex machine, when most shoes/boots still passed despite promoting a gait designed by/for the Ministry of Funny Walks
Far be it for me to even suggest that some rifle coaches and clothing/boot manufacturers have brought this on themselves...
Bummer (euphemism), ostracised again.
Your not a Luddite because you have a new iPod, so well technology in all other areas in life changes, sport should remain unchanged seems to be you basic argument.
True. Mine will flex happily - they pass EC after all - but I can't afford to buy new ones every other year, so they live in boot trees and I don't flex the sole while walking.Richard H wrote:the only reason they walk funny is so that they don't flex the sole, I've yet to actually see a pair of shoes or boots that can't flex
Now, if ISSF will pay me for the replacements I'll need when they break (every pair of boots I've ever owned that didn't have a metal reinforcement in the sole broke at the ball of the foot inside of two years), then I'll happily dance a jig before every match for the judges in the boots.
Until that point, the "walk normally" rule is just a financial penalty for daring to compete on the international circuit. Which isn't the cheapest place for an amateur to get to in the first place...
I completely agree with you on this, the rifle shooters have only themselves to blame for allowing it to get to this point. Rifle shooting should return to being a shooting contest, not an equipment race. Get rid of all the special clothing I say, maybe allow a 2 point sling like the biathalon rifles, that's all.Spencer wrote:Far be it for me to even suggest that some rifle coaches and clothing/boot manufacturers have brought this on themselves...
In the meantime, I like most other pistol shooters, can sit back and laugh at the silly walks and the whining about not being able to shoot without a lower back corset!
Which kind of rifle shooting should do that first? Unlimited benchrest?j-team wrote:Rifle shooting should return to being a shooting contest, not an equipment race.
Biathlon (and should they quit it with the materials science that goes into the rifle, the ammo, the skis, the suits and everything else too?)
How about the american classic? :D
Or what about pistols? :D
Face it, every single branch of shooting, in every discipline, has seen nothing but an equipment race since the arquebus (and really, before that, but that's the first time I know of that there was organised target shooting in Europe). Shotguns, rifles, pistols - their very existence is the result of an equipment drive. And even if we decided to say "okay, enough, stop there", it wouldn't matter - the fields of materials science, manufacturing, engineering and weapons research won't say stop just because we decide to! :D
So what we have to have is a level playing field. And yes, there will be changes; but lets have them be reasonable changes, discussed by all of us and agreed upon by all of us. Not this daft "golden age" fallacy, which any musket shooter from the 1800s would find a bit odd anyways :D
So J-team what era of rifle is devoid of enough technology for you to say its just about the shooting.
Blunderbus, flintlock, matchlock, .....
Seeing as it's not about shooting with all this technology why isn't everyone competing at the elite level. If it's about the technology one would think its easy to shoot world class scores.
As for which shooting sports seem to be doing better participation wise, it would seem that IPSC has been growing where international is contracting and IPSC seems to embrace technology. Hate to tell you technology is what attracts some people especially young to the sport.
Sparks is right firearm advancement will continue and when it can't be used in International shooting someone will come up with another organization that will welcome it and it will drain more people from international shooting.
Blunderbus, flintlock, matchlock, .....
Seeing as it's not about shooting with all this technology why isn't everyone competing at the elite level. If it's about the technology one would think its easy to shoot world class scores.
As for which shooting sports seem to be doing better participation wise, it would seem that IPSC has been growing where international is contracting and IPSC seems to embrace technology. Hate to tell you technology is what attracts some people especially young to the sport.
Sparks is right firearm advancement will continue and when it can't be used in International shooting someone will come up with another organization that will welcome it and it will drain more people from international shooting.