Anatoli method - made my day

mattswe · Post by **mattswe** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:42 pm

After a rather disappointing competition today with .22 / 25m (327/350), I had some coffee and re-read the article by Anatoli Piddubnyy here on pilkguns (http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli.shtml) for the thousand'th time. But this time his discussion about the trigger and a more active approach really caught my eye.

I normally pick up the first stage trigger while going into my aiming area - and then continue when I have entered the same. In Anatoli's text, he talks about first entering the aiming area, and then start to move the trigger.

To my surprise, I then shot the following series with my Morini 162 MI - 10m (30 shots, 98, 96, 97 - 291/300) with great ease. 2 shots was muscle jerks - the rest was just smooth. (trying to insert an image, but not sure how to do that..., perhaps added as attachement)

I will have to continue to work on the smooth but decisive trigger release once I get things moving, but compared to my previous mindset - I really feel that with this method I will hardly not be stuck with a half way trigger that refuses to move.

Anyone else having similar approach? Something else to think about in relation to Anatoli's method?

br
Matt

mattswe · Post by **mattswe** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:16 pm

To add to the topic, I had several trigger chokes during the .22 match, especially the first in a series (of 5 shots). Very nervous for some reason (more than usual).

So I hope that this way could be a way also to handle competition pressure better.

Funny Farmer · Post by **Funny Farmer** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:22 am

I found that I often improve when I concentrate on using a new method, simply because it makes me focus on my technique more than I otherwise do. Then when I try to maintain this level I drop back to normal.

Small variations from time to time are generally a good approach to find your optimal process. To evaluate the real gain I would try this method over a prolonged time though.

mattswe · Post by **mattswe** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:01 pm

That's probably true. I'll continue for a while (forever if it helps with my chokes) and let the score give the verdict.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:39 pm

I don't know that the problem is just that the effectiveness of the lesson wears off as the novelty wears off. In my experience, when I've learned something from reading a how-to piece, on Pilkguns for example, the effect does decline over time, but when I go back to re-read it I discover that there is something that I either missed or forgot. I'm not smart enough to get it all the first time (or the second, third, etc.) I think I just have to integrate bits into what I'm doing, then go back for another bit later.

But there is one piece of Anatoli Piddubnyy's advice that I would never take - under no circumstances should anyone ever listen to Richard Clayderman. That man is to classical music what Kenny G is to jazz.

Roger

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:24 pm

mattswe wrote:To add to the topic, I had several trigger chokes during the .22 match, especially the first in a series (of 5 shots). Very nervous for some reason (more than usual).

So I hope that this way could be a way also to handle competition pressure better.

I'm curious. what do you mean by a trigger "choke"?

deadeyedick · Post by **deadeyedick** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:41 pm

Chicken finger

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:45 pm

ok thanks. when I get chicken finger it is always because I have tightened my grip rather than moving my trigger finger.

Does anyone know if the email address on the bottom of the article is still good for Anatoli? If I were to hire a coach, or go to a clinic, I would want it to be with him.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:01 pm

RandomShotz wrote: But there is one piece of Anatoli Piddubnyy's advice that I would never take - under no circumstances should anyone ever listen to Richard Clayderman. That man is to classical music what Kenny G is to jazz.

Roger

I know! I've got a bit stuck on that point a few times while reading his mostly-brilliant works. Almost like suggesting Yanni ... But perhaps it was intended as a joke? I like to think that's what it was.

As for the choking thing; in my experience it sometimes happens that when feeling less than confident the trigger finger can feel virtually impossible to move, getting worse with each passing second. That's when I put down the pistol and walk away for a bit.

deadeyedick · Post by **deadeyedick** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:20 pm

Many people ( including myself ) suffer chicken finger when we try too hard to execute, or just can't live without the next shot being a 10 !
A little less focus on the outcome, and more on executing technique often solves the problem.

mattswe · Post by **mattswe** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:14 am

Kenny G - I prefere silence/meditation :)

Tigger choke, chicken finger - I guess there are many names to it.
For me it's pure psychological. I have picked up first stage, and pause, and then sniping/hunting for that perfect shot (I realised that is what I most likely have been doing). Then I can end up in not being able to move. If I close my eyes it breaks so easily.

So I guess the symptoms are fairly common and as been pointed out here, little less focus on outcome and more technique could solve this. But it's hard, we all want good scores...

But perhaps with this way of actively dealing with the trigger, I can stay fairly close to my normal process and suppress the urge to snipe.

Tonight is .22 practice. Let's see how that holds up with this technique.

ruig · Post by **ruig** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:26 am

mattswe wrote:In Anatoli's text, he talks about first entering the aiming area, and then start to move the trigger.

Can you quote Anatoli's original text please. Never heard about it...

Update:

I have found it...

After lowering the pistol to the shooting zone, the shooter begins the movement of the index finger - slow but firm.

and

Third, when lowering the pistol to the Shooting zone, start the movement of the index finger, without interrupting it until you release the shot, and then a little more.

I think that first quote was wrong translated (by Anatoli)... I will ask Anatoli... I cannot imagine that he really meant it...

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:20 am

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is dry fire practice. I never have chicken finger when dry firing and since I started doing that a lot more lately, especially against a blank wall, I have found it easier to focus on process over results. At the range, I often start out shooting reasonably well (for me) and then start to overthink, grip too firmly or whatever and the groups open up. A few rounds of dry fire help me get back into the rhythm.

Another thread had this link to a YouTube video of Keith Sanderson discussing dry fire practice. He recommends about a 100 to 1 dry to live fire ratio, which is more than I can manage but I can see where that would help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ

Roger

mattswe · Post by **mattswe** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:41 am

I dry fire a lot. Strong believer in that. I never chicken in dry fire but the situation is so very different mentally.

Normally when I'm on the range for 25m slow fire, I prepare one round in the mag (not inserted), dry fire once, loads the mag and shoots one round, eject mag and dry fire again.

I do this to get more lifts, save ammo and to check technique.

mattswe · Post by **mattswe** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:39 am

.22 practice went well with this mindset.
48, 49, 47, 46 (ups, but it felt good :), 50, 49
Tight groups (except the 46)

I start to think that the reason This works well is that I separate the movement into the aiming area and the shot execution. If I start the trigger while moving into the area and is supposed to have a smooth handover to the actual shot, the complexity of coordination is increased.

Also, it allows me to more easily focus on the sights, as I'm more determined on the trigger (breaks earlier, no long holds anymore)

I have sort of handed over the actual sighting on the target to my Arc Of Movement, so I don't really care about alignment with the target. Perhaps this last part is the key to why I feel better with this approach.

And, if it really is so that Anatoli did a mistake in the translation, perhaps I can claim this method to my own name :). Just kidding...

mattswe · Post by **mattswe** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:11 pm

So far this mindset has felt good for me.

Recently joined a club so tracking 60 shots more regularly instead of 30s.
In practice i've shot 570+ average
First registered competition 574

I strongly believe that it's good to wait with applying critical pressure until the sight has settled in correct area. Else the risk for a premature shot is overwhelming, for me at least.

I do pick up the first stage early, but as my second stage is quite heavy I use this as a mid point where I can focus on settling the sight until I feel its time to start pull the second trigger. With smooth but determined force - straight back pull.

Gwhite · Post by **Gwhite** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:10 pm

One comment (which may or may not apply to how you are doing things, it's hard to tell): If you wait until your hold has settled to it's minimum movement to start your squeeze, the odds are extremely good that the shot will break after your hold has deteriorated. "Minimums" are funny that way. The only way it doesn't happen is if you can actually maintain that minimum movement hold long enough to get the shot off.

My wife & I took a clinic from Brian Zins, and one of the things he strongly recommends is that you have to start your final squeeze BEFORE the pistol is fully settled, so that it actually FIRES at the time when your hold is at its best. I have been working on retraining my trigger finger to do this, and the shots where I execute it properly are typically quite good. If I don't get the shot off reasonably quickly, chicken finger kicks in & I have to have the sense to abort the shot or it will usually be quite a bit worse.

seamaster · Post by **seamaster** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:08 pm

Anatoli's method is " pull first, aim second".

You mentioned you come down to aiming area, start pulling trigger. I am not sure where is aiming in your line of sequence.

I assume your sequence is "coming down to aiming area, start pulling trigger, pulling while looking for the sight, then looking at the sight, keep looking at the sight, keep looking at the sight, bang, keep looking at the sight, keep looking at the sight."

mattswe · Post by **mattswe** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:58 pm

Yes, I think we concluded that perhaps Anatoli made a translation error. But anyway, it opened my mind...

To clarify
come down to aiming area, aim/watch the sights, start pulling trigger, focus totally on the sights with area hold

The sequence is rather fast. I don't hold for long but I do wait until I feel I am in the correct position for my shot.

What I do is separate the trigger process and finding the correct spot for my aim. Perhaps this is because Im relatively new to this sport and it's not second nature yet to find that spot. But once I know where to hold pull should be automatic.

seamaster · Post by **seamaster** » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:35 pm

You shot average 570's in practice, competition 574.

How could you be new to the sport?

TargetTalk

Anatoli method - made my day

Anatoli method - made my day

trigger chokes

Re: trigger chokes

Re: Anatoli method - made my day