Some people call it "emptying your mind"...

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:35 am

Why is it so hard to "empty my mind" of extraneous thoughts. Years ago it seemed natural to be comfortable and just see the front sight framed and sense the trigger press. Now natural takes work.

trinity · Post by **trinity** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:06 am

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

When I first started shooting some years ago, I didn't know anything about qualification scores, quota places, etc etc. All I knew was align the sights, put them on target, and squeeze the trigger slowly. There wasn't a hell of a lot in my mind back then, at least, I don't recall. Shooting was simple, it was easy.

But as you say, what use to come naturally now seems like work. With years of training under my belt, what use to come naturally now seems much harder. I am much more aware of how small sometimes the 10 feels like.

I know we are told about these great athletes that can "empty their mind" and focus on the task at hand. I think only part of that statement is true. I think it is possible to give yourself task relevant instructions when you are distracted by wondering thoughts. However, I don't think "emptying the mind" is actually possible (at least for us mere mortals). The mind is really good at keeping itself busy. It has to. This is millions of years of evolution at work. Your mind being alert and constantly active is what keeps you being eaten by a tiger.

So, in short, I don't think "emptying the mind" is attainable (at least without spending many years in some Tibetan monastery). However, I do think it will achieve the desired result if you give yourself task relevant directions like, "clear front sight, equal light bars, and pull the trigger back through the aiming eye".

-trinity

Pat McCoy · Post by **Pat McCoy** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:55 pm

There is a continuous stream of thoughts going through or minds. Rather than try to "empty" your mind, mentally focus on ONE thing. (Sights; trigger)

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:48 pm

Sights & trigger are two equally important things.
Which is THE ONE? ;)

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:39 am

"emptying your mind"... It is also a metaphor for the ability to accept new ideas and knowledge in Zen philosophy.

"A Cup of Tea
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:26 am

You can't 'empty' your mind it's impossible, you just fill it with something useful. So perhaps focus on something 'fluffy and nice' between shots, and mentally rehearse the shot release as you prepare the shot. As with everything this only works if you train it, every time you shoot, every shot.

Russ wrote:Sights & trigger are two equally important things.
Which is THE ONE? ;)

It's obviously the sights.

Since we can only concentrate on one thing at a time, we focus on the most important. If your sights are in the wrong place, it doesn't matter how good your trigger release is ! Plus trigger release should be a learned, sub conscious action.

Rob.

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:57 am

In fact, I did not “you just fill it with something useful” either you are more useful in this matter. :(
I just asked simple math question 1+1=2 not The One.

Dear Rob, this is the matter of the topic": "emptying your mind"...
please keep your thoughts of the usefulness to the new post.

In the real world, with the reason to help athlete, I can recommend to take a look on the actual targets first before discussion of subconscious performance will take place. You are not really useful to this matter also, sorry.
Sometimes I see posts with “Guest” entry extremely helpful than your “theoretical” and emotional imputs.

scerir · Post by **scerir** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:08 am

"Shinku Muso", "The void of no thought." This refers to the void, or the serene and untroubled mental and spiritual space, that is entered when the archer achieves the state of "munen muso".

"Munen Muso", "No intention, no thought." The quality of having an undisturbed or seemingly "empty" mind. This mind is not empty in the sense that there is no mental activity at all, which would mean complete unconsciousness. "Munen muso" means the state of mind where worries, attachments, fears, and mundane thoughts have been purged from the mind so that the natural intuitive mind can respond unhampered as the situation requires.

http://homepage.mac.com/aep/Seishinkan/ ... ssary.html

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:35 am

"no mental activity at all"
Who can share own real life experience of achieving this sate of the art mind set?

orionshooter · Post by **orionshooter** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:50 am

Russ wrote:

Dear Rob, this is the matter of the topic": "emptying your mind"...
please keep your thoughts of the usefulness to the new post.
.

Oh brother...if that doesnt top all. Russ telling Rob to stay on topic! Proof positive we have at least one poster who needs no help in approaching a task with an empty mind.

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:39 am

The times past when I shot to the best of my abilities, I had the sight alignment in mind and in clear view. Clear view does not come natural any more. My eye won't stare down the front sight. The eye seems to be looking for the sight, not at. Yes I have a lens. Stability also is no longer natural. Seems I have to put conscious effort into stability. My AP groups are at best a nice round group about a quarter coin in size. It is easier to shoot those AP groups at 10M than good groups with 45 at 50yds.

scerir · Post by **scerir** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:07 pm

Russ wrote: "no mental activity at all". Who can share own real life experience of achieving this sate of the art mind set?

This reminds me of a paper saying that skilled shooters engage in less corticocortical communication, particularly between left temporal association and motor control regions, which implies decreased involvement of cognition with motor processes.
http://kch.illinois.edu/Research/Labs/n ... perior.pdf

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:37 pm

I cannot say that I am capable to completely control my mind at the level of art. I just interested to hear from someone who able to reach this level outside of the Olympic style target shooting by doing meditation, and how practical application of this practice can improve quality of performance. I used just a few elements of it and do not have too much time to explore this field due to lack of time and sources. It takes years of development.
Indeed this is interesting topic.

Pat McCoy · Post by **Pat McCoy** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:59 pm

Russ:

"Which is the one?"

Whichever one YOU are more comfortable using.

As a long time rifle shooter and coach I've used sights (probably because of the extremely steady hold available to the shooter when using both hands and the clothing allowed). Allowing the sub(un)conscious to handle the trigger movement.

In coaching a few pistol shooters I THINK I have found it to be better to focus on trigger with the pistol. Allowing the final sight adjustment into the highest scoring area to become the result of sub(un)conscious movement.

I am trying to move my focus to the trigger when shooting pistol, and I believe I have better results when doing so, however the many years of rifle shooting still drag me back to watching the sights.

It may be that the ONE THING is something completely different for another shooter; a cue word for example. I believe either "sights" or "trigger" is more appropriate as they are the two fundamentals of all shooting (line up the sights with your eye and the target, and make the gun go off without disturbing the sights).

v76 · Post by **v76** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:19 pm

I use a mantra during the last phases of my shot process. The longest french word works pretty well. ; )

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:58 pm

Thank you Pat McCoy, I share your point of view, where is one part or another can play a major part in final stage of the shot execution. In many cases it will depends from the level of acceptance by athlete and his level of performance.

“It's obviously” approach does not work very well in this aplication as a single model of the performance.

Misny · Post by **Misny** » Tue May 08, 2012 11:55 am

jackh wrote:The times past when I shot to the best of my abilities, I had the sight alignment in mind and in clear view. Clear view does not come natural any more. My eye won't stare down the front sight. The eye seems to be looking for the sight, not at. Yes I have a lens. Stability also is no longer natural. Seems I have to put conscious effort into stability. My AP groups are at best a nice round group about a quarter coin in size. It is easier to shoot those AP groups at 10M than good groups with 45 at 50yds.

I feel your pain brother. Getting old isn't for sissies.

djsomers · Post by **djsomers** » Tue May 08, 2012 8:30 pm

I am a complete amatuer, so take my opinions for their full value.

I dont think you empty your mind - that's impossible. What you do is quiet your mind and step back and observe your thoughts, which with practice, are on sight picture and trigger pull.

Its kind of like when you drive 10 miles and cant remember a thing. When you are in the "zone", time sort of becomes slowed or irrelevent. I recently shot a 97 with 10 pellets and it was effortless and carefree. It is also called "flow" by some authors.

At the moment, I am back in "trying-too-hard" mode and back shooting 80.

seamaster · Post by **seamaster** » Tue May 08, 2012 9:07 pm

In the classic shooting example, the student holds the pistol, looks at front sight, the coach 's hand wrap around student's trigger finger, student looks and coach triggers. Grouping is excellent.

What does that tell us? Grouping is good because student's alignment is more important than coach's trigger pull? Or is it coach's trigger pull is so good that student's alignment could be mediocre and coach's excellent smooth trigger pull can still compensate for student's mediocre alignment?

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Tue May 08, 2012 11:35 pm

Misny wrote:
jackh wrote:The times past when I shot to the best of my abilities, I had the sight alignment in mind and in clear view. Clear view does not come natural any more. My eye won't stare down the front sight. The eye seems to be looking for the sight, not at. Yes I have a lens. Stability also is no longer natural. Seems I have to put conscious effort into stability. My AP groups are at best a nice round group about a quarter coin in size. It is easier to shoot those AP groups at 10M than good groups with 45 at 50yds.
I feel your pain brother. Getting old isn't for sissies.

We need an old phart shooting category. Oh, they have that. Senior.

Our original pistol range had more sunlight come in from the rear. The sight was actually illuminated when I shot my best. Present range is walled at the rear for a wind break and it helps cut glare on the rear lens of bullseye dot shooters. Under the present cover, my sight appears in dark silhouette. I think that makes a major difference.