Sounds like you're OK for supplies. Primers are the real problem. You can make everything else.
Go ahead and shoot up the stuff you don't like. It won't blow your gun up and you want all the practice you can get.
.45 shooters don't worry much about their brass, but I never gave much thought to .38 since I've been using the same batch for years. I'm sure your new WW brass will be just fine.
Don't get too involved in details. Put together some loads, test them, and then go shoot.
Model 52 leading question
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
Roll crimp vs taper crimp for S&W 52s
Actually ... in my experience, you do have to be a little carefull with 38 Spec in the 52s ... not due to blowing up, but if I recall, you want to use a roll crimp in the SW 52 vs a taper crimp in the revolvers. I haven't reloaded for the 52 in a while, I just remember it being finiky with the crimp.Rover wrote:Don't get too involved in details. Put together some loads, test them, and then go shoot.
I used 2.8gr Bullseye over Win Primers and the piece just "washed" in my hand. I love the way the 52 recoils. It's unlike anything else i've shot.
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
Ah, now we are getting into the nitty and the gritty of reloading.
My understanding is that the Lee factory crimp die (I got the four die set) can make either taper or roll crimp. BTW, the Lee website mentions roll crimp for revolvers and taper for autos. I suppose I'll know more when I finally have the tools in hand. I have read that consistency of crimp is important so I did not trust myself to do the crimp by "feel" with the seating die.
One thing bothers me, tho' - I did not buy a scale - I have a powder measure set and figured I'd just take it into the lab and calibrate it with Bullseye powder which is the only powder anyone seems to use for this round. However, 0.1 grain is ~.006 grams or 6 milligrams and it seems like it would be very difficult to get a scoop to consistently throw a particular quantity of powder within +/- 3 mg. But I suppose this will also become clear when I finally get started.
The next thing I'm going to have to work out is recovering the brass. Collecting the brass from the floor of an active indoor range doesn't look like fun. I've seen some net catchers that strap to the shooting hand - anyone know if they work worth a d*mn?
I really like shooting the 52. The recoil is sweet - just enough to make sure I'm paying attention and throw a flier if I'm not.
And it's a heck of a lot classier looking than the straight-backed 1911 clones or any of the Glock kludges.
Roger
My understanding is that the Lee factory crimp die (I got the four die set) can make either taper or roll crimp. BTW, the Lee website mentions roll crimp for revolvers and taper for autos. I suppose I'll know more when I finally have the tools in hand. I have read that consistency of crimp is important so I did not trust myself to do the crimp by "feel" with the seating die.
One thing bothers me, tho' - I did not buy a scale - I have a powder measure set and figured I'd just take it into the lab and calibrate it with Bullseye powder which is the only powder anyone seems to use for this round. However, 0.1 grain is ~.006 grams or 6 milligrams and it seems like it would be very difficult to get a scoop to consistently throw a particular quantity of powder within +/- 3 mg. But I suppose this will also become clear when I finally get started.
The next thing I'm going to have to work out is recovering the brass. Collecting the brass from the floor of an active indoor range doesn't look like fun. I've seen some net catchers that strap to the shooting hand - anyone know if they work worth a d*mn?
I really like shooting the 52. The recoil is sweet - just enough to make sure I'm paying attention and throw a flier if I'm not.
And it's a heck of a lot classier looking than the straight-backed 1911 clones or any of the Glock kludges.
Roger
The crimp -RandomShotz wrote:Ah, now we are getting into the nitty and the gritty of reloading.
My understanding is that the Lee factory crimp die (I got the four die set) can make either taper or roll crimp. BTW, the Lee website mentions roll crimp for revolvers and taper for autos. I suppose I'll know more when I finally have the tools in hand. I have read that consistency of crimp is important so I did not trust myself to do the crimp by "feel" with the seating die.
One thing bothers me, tho' - I did not buy a scale - I have a powder measure set and figured I'd just take it into the lab and calibrate it with Bullseye powder which is the only powder anyone seems to use for this round. However, 0.1 grain is ~.006 grams or 6 milligrams and it seems like it would be very difficult to get a scoop to consistently throw a particular quantity of powder within +/- 3 mg. But I suppose this will also become clear when I finally get started.
The next thing I'm going to have to work out is recovering the brass. Collecting the brass from the floor of an active indoor range doesn't look like fun. I've seen some net catchers that strap to the shooting hand - anyone know if they work worth a d*mn?
Roger
If I recall, the reason why LEE suggests roll crimp for revolvers is so you crimp in the groove of the bullet to limit the amount of "creep" under heavy recoil. This is definitely true for magnum loads. With the 38 Spec in wad cutter config, I was concerned about the taper crimp over compressing the lead(changing the dia) and leaving a sharp forward edge to hang up on the feed ramp, chamber etc. The load is so light that any hiccup can cause issues with reliability. A very slight roll crimp gave a rounded edge to help feed more reliably. LEE writes their manuals for 95% of the reloaders who do not shoot wadcutters. Of course, you will have a grand time finding what works best for you, so this is just an idea...
The net -
As for brass recovery, the hand nets are worthless. Get, or make one that looks like a fish net with a flat base. I have seen guys mount them to the table/deck with either a sliding wood clamp(harbor freight tools) or a "C" clamp. I bought mine from a shooter in AZ who makes his own. Look around at the next Bullseye/Int'l pistol match and you'll probably see a couple of variation. If needed, I can send a pic of mine.
The scale -
Cabelas, Bass Pro Shop, Midway, Natchez Shooters, all have rather cheap digital scales now. Just be sure you are able to confirm calibration. They go for around $45 ... i think. If not, the LEE "safety scale" is actually an accurate and repeatable unit for arounf $30. That is what I started with in 1993 and I upgraded in 1996. It was still working properly.
Good Luck and watch out for double charges and no primers ....
OK Roll crimps work best in everything, but the catch is that the cases MUST be the same length.
If they are not the same length the crimp will not be uniform, causing varying performance.
Most revolver bullets, including many wadcutters, have a crimping groove. Some semi-wadcutters and wadcutters are crimped OVER the front and some are crimped right into the side of the soft bullet.
C.E. Harris, in the NRA Handloading book, and Ken Waters in his articles have both stated that the roll crimp is MORE accurate than the taper crimp.
Even the .45 will work better with a roll crimp. Don't give me that crap that it headspaces on the case mouth. A moment's work with a caliper will tell you otherwise. Headspacing on the bullet works perfectly.
If they are not the same length the crimp will not be uniform, causing varying performance.
Most revolver bullets, including many wadcutters, have a crimping groove. Some semi-wadcutters and wadcutters are crimped OVER the front and some are crimped right into the side of the soft bullet.
C.E. Harris, in the NRA Handloading book, and Ken Waters in his articles have both stated that the roll crimp is MORE accurate than the taper crimp.
Even the .45 will work better with a roll crimp. Don't give me that crap that it headspaces on the case mouth. A moment's work with a caliper will tell you otherwise. Headspacing on the bullet works perfectly.
Last edited by Rover on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
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Well, I got the stuff today from Midway and picked up primers and powder locally. The Bullseye was out of stock in 1# container, so I bought the 4#. The only small pistol primers left were Remington and Federal Match, so I bought Remington.
Then I got everything home and set it out, popped a brewski, turned on the TV, lit up a Macanudo Ascot* and prepared to load. Unfortunately, amongst all the stuff I bought I managed to forget the shell holder for the case trimmer, so I pretty much stopped there. And the scale I bought was a cheapie digital from Hornady. I weighed the same brass a dozen times or so and got a measurements with a range of 0.6 gr, so it's going back.
Not an auspicious start.
And thanks for all the tips. I intend to trim the cases carefully, so I should be able to get a consistent roll crimp. I noticed on the reloads I bought from another company a while ago that the crimp seemed to cut into the very top of the bullet. I can see that this is going to take quite a bit of fussing until it is right.
Roger
* - Not really - I just wrote that in case Misny was still checking this thread.
Then I got everything home and set it out, popped a brewski, turned on the TV, lit up a Macanudo Ascot* and prepared to load. Unfortunately, amongst all the stuff I bought I managed to forget the shell holder for the case trimmer, so I pretty much stopped there. And the scale I bought was a cheapie digital from Hornady. I weighed the same brass a dozen times or so and got a measurements with a range of 0.6 gr, so it's going back.
Not an auspicious start.
And thanks for all the tips. I intend to trim the cases carefully, so I should be able to get a consistent roll crimp. I noticed on the reloads I bought from another company a while ago that the crimp seemed to cut into the very top of the bullet. I can see that this is going to take quite a bit of fussing until it is right.
Roger
* - Not really - I just wrote that in case Misny was still checking this thread.
You probably won't need to trim your cases. You don't need to weigh them.
If you can get your powder charge to within a tenth of a grain you'll be great (not too tough to do). An old balance beam scale is just as accurate as the electronic ones (better?).
An RCBS L'il Dandy powder measure works great (just for pistol) if you don't want to use a dipper. I use the similar Bonanza or a dipper for my stuff. A loading block will make your life easier, too.
If you can get your powder charge to within a tenth of a grain you'll be great (not too tough to do). An old balance beam scale is just as accurate as the electronic ones (better?).
An RCBS L'il Dandy powder measure works great (just for pistol) if you don't want to use a dipper. I use the similar Bonanza or a dipper for my stuff. A loading block will make your life easier, too.
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Levergun59
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 am
- Location: Silver Lake WI
Gents,
Now for a howl of protests. The 45ACP headspaces on the extractor. Case lengths from the different manufactures all vary in length and tolerance, they all vary in length. Trimming a case is great to get the bullets to crimp on the cannelure, but you are trimming away from the case mouth. So headspacing on the case mouth is just not possible. I have never had a 45ACP fail to chamber because the brass has grown too long and has run up to the chamber wall. The bullet does not headspace the cartridge against the rifling, it is not even close. Having thrown these two options out, the extractor is the only solution to headspace. I also think that all the straight wall cases, 10mm, 40S@W also do this. 9mm is the only case that headspaces on the case mouth because it is not a straight case. The reason I believe this is that I taper crimped some 9's a little too tight. When I chambered a round in my 459 Smith the bullets buried themselves in the chamber and the firing pin was not able to strike the primer, thank goodness. Just my thoughts
Chris
Now for a howl of protests. The 45ACP headspaces on the extractor. Case lengths from the different manufactures all vary in length and tolerance, they all vary in length. Trimming a case is great to get the bullets to crimp on the cannelure, but you are trimming away from the case mouth. So headspacing on the case mouth is just not possible. I have never had a 45ACP fail to chamber because the brass has grown too long and has run up to the chamber wall. The bullet does not headspace the cartridge against the rifling, it is not even close. Having thrown these two options out, the extractor is the only solution to headspace. I also think that all the straight wall cases, 10mm, 40S@W also do this. 9mm is the only case that headspaces on the case mouth because it is not a straight case. The reason I believe this is that I taper crimped some 9's a little too tight. When I chambered a round in my 459 Smith the bullets buried themselves in the chamber and the firing pin was not able to strike the primer, thank goodness. Just my thoughts
Chris
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
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Levergun:
First, I am neither a gentleman, nor do I intend to howl. But I would point to the SAAMI specs as a reference. For the 45 ACP, 9 mm and 10 mm rounds the headspace dimension is measured from the front of the chamber where it transitions to the bore diameter.
BTW, SAAMI specs may be found here:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and ... /index.cfm
Rover:
As far as trimming the cases, I expect to do that only once, but I was warned that the brass length as manufactured is not necessarily consistent nor in spec. The 52 is fussy about cartridge length - I was given some cheap wad cutters to try which were factory new, not reloads, and they were just a tich too long to fit in the magazine. And I don't intend to weigh the brass at all, I was just using that to see if the scale gave repeatable readings. Hey, the beer was already open and the cigar already lit and all my new toys were spread out before me and I had nothing else to do anyway.
Digital laboratory scales with the required precision cost hundreds, so I'm going to take your advice and go old school for the powder measuring stuff.
Roger
First, I am neither a gentleman, nor do I intend to howl. But I would point to the SAAMI specs as a reference. For the 45 ACP, 9 mm and 10 mm rounds the headspace dimension is measured from the front of the chamber where it transitions to the bore diameter.
BTW, SAAMI specs may be found here:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and ... /index.cfm
Rover:
As far as trimming the cases, I expect to do that only once, but I was warned that the brass length as manufactured is not necessarily consistent nor in spec. The 52 is fussy about cartridge length - I was given some cheap wad cutters to try which were factory new, not reloads, and they were just a tich too long to fit in the magazine. And I don't intend to weigh the brass at all, I was just using that to see if the scale gave repeatable readings. Hey, the beer was already open and the cigar already lit and all my new toys were spread out before me and I had nothing else to do anyway.
Digital laboratory scales with the required precision cost hundreds, so I'm going to take your advice and go old school for the powder measuring stuff.
Roger
RE: The .45 stuff. It seems the hot shooters are using 185 gr Nosler or Zero jacketed HP bullets. I haven't, so I can't comment on them.
For my own use with lead SWCs, it is simple to adjust the headspace with bullet seating depth so that case length with a taper crimp doesn't matter.
The way you do it is to remove the barrel and drop a loaded round into the chamber. Adjust bullet seating depth so the rear of the cartridge is flush with the barrel hood. Viola!
For your M52, you'll want a roll crimped WC flush with the case mouth. I've found the lot of brass I'm using is very consistent in length.
Gentleman? No one has ever accused me of that.
For my own use with lead SWCs, it is simple to adjust the headspace with bullet seating depth so that case length with a taper crimp doesn't matter.
The way you do it is to remove the barrel and drop a loaded round into the chamber. Adjust bullet seating depth so the rear of the cartridge is flush with the barrel hood. Viola!
For your M52, you'll want a roll crimped WC flush with the case mouth. I've found the lot of brass I'm using is very consistent in length.
Gentleman? No one has ever accused me of that.
Re: Model 52 leading question
that'll do itRandomShotz wrote:I cleaned the barrel until it was absolutely clean and mirror bright
I've seen a lot of posts about these pistols over the years and I have to say that I've never seen anybody say that the S&W model 52 is fussy. I've never trimmed .38 SPL cases and I use a taper crimp. My S&W model 52-1 isn't fussy with quality reloads or factory match Winchester, Remington or Federal. Reloading any semi-auto pistol cartridge using a roll crimp is just asking for extra work and problems. The thousands of .38 SPL Winchester Match ammo I've shot over the years weren't roll crimped.
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
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I'm not sure that I have read anyone actually calling it fussy, but I have read some shooters insist that the rounds must be roll (or taper) crimped, and that they must be at the minimum case length, and that if 2.7 gr Bullseye doesn't work, try 2.8 gr (BTW, a difference which is very difficult to measure with reliable precision let alone accuracy with typical reloading gear) and so on.
In my gun, I have used Fiocchi rounds which have the bullet just below the case mouth and are roll crimped, and two varieties remanufactured from mixed brass that were more or less taper crimped but the crimp cut into the bullet. I have a feeling that the gun is in fact not nearly as fussy as some of its owners.
In any case, the Winchester brass is within the SAAMI specs but above the minimum and yet not long enough for the case trimmer to touch them. I can alter the case trimmer (it's not really adjustable, per se) but I won't unless there is a good reason. I have loaded a small batch and I think that the Lee gear will work with admirable consistency once I get a feel for it. I'll touch them off as soon as I can cobble up a brass catcher. I have the mesh material, some spring steel for the frame, a hazy picture in my mind of how it should be assembled and just need to make it come together.
In the mean time, I can still make ugly targets with my TOZ FP.
Roger
In my gun, I have used Fiocchi rounds which have the bullet just below the case mouth and are roll crimped, and two varieties remanufactured from mixed brass that were more or less taper crimped but the crimp cut into the bullet. I have a feeling that the gun is in fact not nearly as fussy as some of its owners.
In any case, the Winchester brass is within the SAAMI specs but above the minimum and yet not long enough for the case trimmer to touch them. I can alter the case trimmer (it's not really adjustable, per se) but I won't unless there is a good reason. I have loaded a small batch and I think that the Lee gear will work with admirable consistency once I get a feel for it. I'll touch them off as soon as I can cobble up a brass catcher. I have the mesh material, some spring steel for the frame, a hazy picture in my mind of how it should be assembled and just need to make it come together.
In the mean time, I can still make ugly targets with my TOZ FP.
Roger
52-2
Steve here... First post,
My 52-2 leads similar to the pic or less, so does my Glock with a KKM 9mm barrel as well as my 38 Mid national match Colt and my Colt commander in 9mm.
The only pistols that I shoot that don't lead are any of my 45acp's, and my 38 super barrel that fits in my 9mm Commander. That being said. As has been conveyed in a previous post... the Choir Boy on an old brush or a Lewis Lead remover work like a dream. I have played with everything from pure lead with an old Ideal 358395 hollow base waddcutter,in my 38's to wheel weight/ 5% tin and water quenched with an Ideal 356402, in my 9mm. They both lead a little.
Most of my target pistol work ends up at 20/1 lead tin. Which lead similarly. But cast gorgeous boolits:)
My bore on my 52-2 slugs .354. I size to .356. I load 2.6 to 2.7 of be with my H&G 244, which is similar to the H&G 50 without the button nose for use in the 52-2, the empty cases as said in a previous post roll off the top of the pistol and sometimes land on the bench.
Oh yah I roll crimp too
Thanks Steve
My 52-2 leads similar to the pic or less, so does my Glock with a KKM 9mm barrel as well as my 38 Mid national match Colt and my Colt commander in 9mm.
The only pistols that I shoot that don't lead are any of my 45acp's, and my 38 super barrel that fits in my 9mm Commander. That being said. As has been conveyed in a previous post... the Choir Boy on an old brush or a Lewis Lead remover work like a dream. I have played with everything from pure lead with an old Ideal 358395 hollow base waddcutter,in my 38's to wheel weight/ 5% tin and water quenched with an Ideal 356402, in my 9mm. They both lead a little.
Most of my target pistol work ends up at 20/1 lead tin. Which lead similarly. But cast gorgeous boolits:)
My bore on my 52-2 slugs .354. I size to .356. I load 2.6 to 2.7 of be with my H&G 244, which is similar to the H&G 50 without the button nose for use in the 52-2, the empty cases as said in a previous post roll off the top of the pistol and sometimes land on the bench.
Oh yah I roll crimp too
Thanks Steve
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
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- Location: Lexington, KY
Hi, Steve -
It may be your first post, but it sounds like you've been around the block a couple of times.
I'm not going to get into casting. I did that back when I was shooting coal burners and I just don't want to go there again. I just want to shoot and probably wouldn't even reload if good ammo at a decent price was available.
This evening I finally found a Chore Boy, and it did a fantastic job. (It made that poor choir boy look even more useless.) I'm still bothered by how much crap seems to build up in the chamber in the same region every time - 4-6 o'clock - but it was not nearly as bad as those photos even after about 60 rounds of the same cheap reloads.
BTW, I had the frame for my home made brass catcher with me at the range. I didn't put the net on yet because I wanted to see if I was even in the ball park. I never realized it but the 52 pitches brass almost straight back and up at almost a 45 deg angle. It looks like with a little modification the catcher will work well. Of course, it involves PVC pipe and duct tape; I'll post pics when it's done.
Roger
It may be your first post, but it sounds like you've been around the block a couple of times.
I'm not going to get into casting. I did that back when I was shooting coal burners and I just don't want to go there again. I just want to shoot and probably wouldn't even reload if good ammo at a decent price was available.
This evening I finally found a Chore Boy, and it did a fantastic job. (It made that poor choir boy look even more useless.) I'm still bothered by how much crap seems to build up in the chamber in the same region every time - 4-6 o'clock - but it was not nearly as bad as those photos even after about 60 rounds of the same cheap reloads.
BTW, I had the frame for my home made brass catcher with me at the range. I didn't put the net on yet because I wanted to see if I was even in the ball park. I never realized it but the 52 pitches brass almost straight back and up at almost a 45 deg angle. It looks like with a little modification the catcher will work well. Of course, it involves PVC pipe and duct tape; I'll post pics when it's done.
Roger
O.K.,I've been readind this thread and here's my 2 cnts. I had the same problem and this is what works for me. The gun is a 52-1 and I was having heavy leading and FTF issues after about 125-150 rnds. I would have to spend about 30 minutes scrubbing,picking and brushing the lead out of the barrel. The load I use is 2.9 gr. of BE,CCI primer,assorted cases(R-P,Federal,Winchester it really does'nt matter) and Zero 148gr. HDWC. Now thw fix. I take about 100-125 or so bullets ( don't really count them ) and put them in a margerine container,squirt a little Lee Liquid Alox bullet lube in ,put the lid on and roll them around so they all get covered. I then empty them on a cookie sheet with some waxed paper on it ,spread them out and let them dry overnight. When they are dry they look like they have a light coating of shellac . Then I just load as always. Since I have been doing this,probably about two years, I can shoot about 400-500 rnds. before I clean it and thats just because the action is starting to slow down. When I do clean it,I just soak the barrel with some Kroil,swabb it out and usually use a little Chore Boy at the very throut where I get a slight bit of leading. What used to take be 30 min. of scouring is now done in about 5 min. As I've said this easy fix works great for me maybe it will for you too. Good Luck,.....bob v
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
I'm a little surprised that this thread has lived as long as it has. I humbly offer thanks to everyone for their contributions.
OK, this is what I've done so far. I loaded up a batch of rounds, 2.7 gr BE, Winchester brass and Hornady 148 gr HBWC. The Hornady's have a cross hatched surface filled with a dry lube:
http://tinyurl.com/8a4upef
The bullet is seated just below the case mouth with a roll crimp, but I will try a taper crimp next if only to avoid working the brass overmuch.
I have only had a chance to shoot about 50 rounds, but there was no noticeable leading - a couple of passes each with a brush and patch pretty much cleaned up. Also there have been no problems feeding and the home made brass catcher works well enough.
Accuracy? That's a good question, but since I don't have a vise or Ransom Rest, I'm not sure how to evaluate that. I'm still learning to shoot and this is my first serious CF so there is no way for me to tell if one particular set of parameters is producing 1/2" (or even 1") larger groups than another. I'm hoping that as long as the reloading is as consistent as possible, even sub-optimal parameters will be good enough for me to benefit from practice for a good while yet.
Roger
OK, this is what I've done so far. I loaded up a batch of rounds, 2.7 gr BE, Winchester brass and Hornady 148 gr HBWC. The Hornady's have a cross hatched surface filled with a dry lube:
http://tinyurl.com/8a4upef
The bullet is seated just below the case mouth with a roll crimp, but I will try a taper crimp next if only to avoid working the brass overmuch.
I have only had a chance to shoot about 50 rounds, but there was no noticeable leading - a couple of passes each with a brush and patch pretty much cleaned up. Also there have been no problems feeding and the home made brass catcher works well enough.
Accuracy? That's a good question, but since I don't have a vise or Ransom Rest, I'm not sure how to evaluate that. I'm still learning to shoot and this is my first serious CF so there is no way for me to tell if one particular set of parameters is producing 1/2" (or even 1") larger groups than another. I'm hoping that as long as the reloading is as consistent as possible, even sub-optimal parameters will be good enough for me to benefit from practice for a good while yet.
Roger
forgot to say, I seat my bullets just a hair out from flush. Just so if I run my thumb nail along the case it will slightly catch the lead. I also use a slight roll crimp and don't replace split or weakened cases very much or at all. As far as accurqacy goes, I think if you shoot off of some sand bags it will give you an idea if your load is working. look for tight groups. Or let an experienced BE shooter try it and see what they think......bob v
I, too, use the Lee Liquid lube. I use a double coat on some 325gr. gas checked lead bullets I use in my .41 cal. rifle.
Recently I put 60 rounds thru the rifle at a velocity of almost 1800fps. There was no sign of leading and the bore looked polished. Accuracy was excellent (one hole at fifty yards).
You can thin the lube with mineral spirits if you wanted to put on a very light coat (already lubed WCs).
Recently I put 60 rounds thru the rifle at a velocity of almost 1800fps. There was no sign of leading and the bore looked polished. Accuracy was excellent (one hole at fifty yards).
You can thin the lube with mineral spirits if you wanted to put on a very light coat (already lubed WCs).