http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ
I have way too much live fire !!!
proper training by SFC Keith Sandersen
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You know, I run into shooters all the time, they are looking for coaches, facilities, equipment, etc etc. But then when you ask them how they train, they either rarely train, or they thinking going to the range and shooting a match is training.
In this short video, Keith has emphasized an amazing number of critical points to improving your performance.
I thought I was doing enough dry firing, but my ratio of dry to live is probably 3:1. Now I know why I am not number 1 in the world. I am not sure if I will ever get to 100:1, since I am not a full time shooter, but the sentiment I absolutely agree with.
-trinity
In this short video, Keith has emphasized an amazing number of critical points to improving your performance.
I thought I was doing enough dry firing, but my ratio of dry to live is probably 3:1. Now I know why I am not number 1 in the world. I am not sure if I will ever get to 100:1, since I am not a full time shooter, but the sentiment I absolutely agree with.
-trinity
Agreed. It's making me really re-think my training plan, which includes a lot of live fire - almost the opposite of the ratio of what Keith said of 100 to 1 dry fire to live fire.lastman wrote:Such a good video.
So many very important messages there.
It does get a little discouraging sometimes that although I spend a lot of time training, it is probably very ineffecient and not nearly as productive as it could be for the simple reason that I don't really know what I'm doing with regards to how to train. I wish USAS would offer a several day or week long clinic in each discipline that would be focused on helping the attendees develop specific techniques and tools on how to train. I have the desire, I just need some guidance. ;)
Thanks,
Ted
Training doesn't have to be fancy.
You can start dry firing at home, no need to even go to the range.
Find a nice blank wall, with good lighting around you, and start dry firing. Since there is no target, just start with repeating the sight alignment and trigger release process and do it as consistently as possible.
When you think you've got a good handle on blank wall dry firing, mark a quarter sized dot on the wall, stand 6' back, and aim at that. Repeat the sight alignment and trigger release process. Always working on proper alignment and positioning of sights, and smooth clean trigger release.
That's it.
It isn't fancy, but the tricky bit is what Keith talked about, you have to be very critical during dry firing. The reason is, since there is no outcome, you will easily become bored and disengage. If your mind is not engaged, you will not be focused on the sights or trigger release, and as such, you will not improve much from dry firing. If you are mentally engaged, you will start noticing all sorts of things you never saw before in your technique.
-trinity
You can start dry firing at home, no need to even go to the range.
Find a nice blank wall, with good lighting around you, and start dry firing. Since there is no target, just start with repeating the sight alignment and trigger release process and do it as consistently as possible.
When you think you've got a good handle on blank wall dry firing, mark a quarter sized dot on the wall, stand 6' back, and aim at that. Repeat the sight alignment and trigger release process. Always working on proper alignment and positioning of sights, and smooth clean trigger release.
That's it.
It isn't fancy, but the tricky bit is what Keith talked about, you have to be very critical during dry firing. The reason is, since there is no outcome, you will easily become bored and disengage. If your mind is not engaged, you will not be focused on the sights or trigger release, and as such, you will not improve much from dry firing. If you are mentally engaged, you will start noticing all sorts of things you never saw before in your technique.
-trinity
One of the quickest ways to make dryfire tougher and more interesting, is to set a goal. For a U.S. shooter trying to get Distinguished the first step is to dryfire 10 perfect shots. Like Keith says get very picky about each shot. Once you do 10 in a session, then train until you can break 5 in a row then 10. This tells the shooter he can shoot 10 perfect shots at a time and when shooting in a EIC match this builds confidence. You have to be able to do it dryfire before you can expect to do it in a match, right?
Sport Pistol shooters can use 20 as the target since each phase is 20 shots. Makes for some long dryfire sessions at first but skills improve and times decrease. The main point is to dryfire with a set goal.
Sport Pistol shooters can use 20 as the target since each phase is 20 shots. Makes for some long dryfire sessions at first but skills improve and times decrease. The main point is to dryfire with a set goal.
I'm curious about others' thoughts on how such a regimen ought to apply in AP training. I have pursued dry fire using my Baikal 46m, if not very enthusiastically nor probably 'enough' according to such standards being talked about here. It's difficult to take it seriously in part because the dry trigger release doesn't feel very much like the live fire trigger release. Besides that, there isn't any significant recoil to concern myself with, so the exit of the pellet and air isn't changing my sight alignment any more live than dry. The fact that a pellet has hit the target or the blank paper with live fire, and that there's no recoil, allows me to see with precision what has happened in my triggering process and how well I have maintained my sight alignment. There is no disturbance to distract me from these observations except for a little bit of noise, but as I've found the 46m to be much, much quieter than the PCP pistols at the club this isn't much of an issue in practice at home. At the club I can always put on hearing protection.
So, anyone care to weigh in on why dry fire should be equally important in AP training? Or less so perhaps, considering the lack of recoil? I appreciate the importance of isolated exercises to a degree... but considering that the triggering action feels so different, this seems counter-productive to me, at least with this pistol.
So, anyone care to weigh in on why dry fire should be equally important in AP training? Or less so perhaps, considering the lack of recoil? I appreciate the importance of isolated exercises to a degree... but considering that the triggering action feels so different, this seems counter-productive to me, at least with this pistol.
The trigger doesn't, Can NOT, physically change between dry and live fire. The exact same thing happens with the exact same parts in the exact same manor. The difference you feel is the passage of air and release of the shot.
But the reason for dry-fire with AP is because you are differentiating between Training and Practice. If you want to improve, you need to Train. Focus on the individual aspects that make up the whole and methodically improve each small piece. If all you do is Practice putting all the pieces together, shooting for score, then you're drastically limiting your ability to improve. The IZH does move when shot, and there is a lot to be learned from spending time watching the sights without the distraction of a target/aiming circle.
Kieth shot in the 2011 Dixie Double this past November. He'd just picked up and started shooting AP 4~5 weeks prior (by his own admission, we were 2 lanes apart and chatted before the start of day 2). He shot a 579 and a 581. You've probably put more pellets down-range than he had at that point, but those scores are a result of the overall training he's put in. Most of that being dry-fire... draw your own conclusions.
But the reason for dry-fire with AP is because you are differentiating between Training and Practice. If you want to improve, you need to Train. Focus on the individual aspects that make up the whole and methodically improve each small piece. If all you do is Practice putting all the pieces together, shooting for score, then you're drastically limiting your ability to improve. The IZH does move when shot, and there is a lot to be learned from spending time watching the sights without the distraction of a target/aiming circle.
Kieth shot in the 2011 Dixie Double this past November. He'd just picked up and started shooting AP 4~5 weeks prior (by his own admission, we were 2 lanes apart and chatted before the start of day 2). He shot a 579 and a 581. You've probably put more pellets down-range than he had at that point, but those scores are a result of the overall training he's put in. Most of that being dry-fire... draw your own conclusions.
Gerard, I have not dry fired the IZH46 very much, but in my memory, it did not feel significantly different than live firing. Perhaps other IZH owners can speak out here, does the IZH's dry fire mechanism work differently than its live fire system?
Anyway, as Keith said in the video, dry firing will help every shooting discipline, from Olympic air pistol, to long range full bore rifle shooting. This is because the fundamentals of proper sight alignment and smooth trigger are valid for all shooting disciplines regardless of recoil.
Perhaps the problem you are running into is, since (presumably) you have not done significant amount of dry firing, you may not be aware enough of the small sight/triggering errors from shot to shot. The more dry firing you do, the more detail you will see in the process (some refer to this as learning to train).
I challenge you to spend a week doing 1 hour of dry firing each day, and really really pay attention to the sight alignment and smooth trigger release as to not disturb the sights. After the week, report back to us and let us know if you see any more detail in your shot process. I think you will.
-trinity
Anyway, as Keith said in the video, dry firing will help every shooting discipline, from Olympic air pistol, to long range full bore rifle shooting. This is because the fundamentals of proper sight alignment and smooth trigger are valid for all shooting disciplines regardless of recoil.
Perhaps the problem you are running into is, since (presumably) you have not done significant amount of dry firing, you may not be aware enough of the small sight/triggering errors from shot to shot. The more dry firing you do, the more detail you will see in the process (some refer to this as learning to train).
I challenge you to spend a week doing 1 hour of dry firing each day, and really really pay attention to the sight alignment and smooth trigger release as to not disturb the sights. After the week, report back to us and let us know if you see any more detail in your shot process. I think you will.
-trinity
Thanks folks, excellent points. On the IZH feeling different from dry to live for me, how to describe it? The thing feels mushy dry, vague even. There's no crispness, just a little reduction in tension with a small feeling of vibration from the mechanism falling into place. With live fire the trigger feels to me that it's got a much more distinct break, the let-off being far more cleanly defined as separate from the tripping of the valve. This may be illusion of course. Or, after perhaps 15,000 shots through it in the past year it's not, and perhaps it's the way I have the trigger set up which might be somewhat different from the way others adjuster theirs. I could not get used to the two-stage feel it came with, so I adjusted it until it felt like a single stage trigger, just a fairly short draw and a very short travel after the shot. Feels much easier for me that way. I was having far too much of a 'chicken finger' struggle with the original setup.
Anyway, sure, I will take that challenge. Next week. This week I've got a match to shoot over Saturday and Sunday and won't be doing a lot of shooting before that. Just enough to stay sharp, but I'm still recovering from a shoulder injury and don't want to tire myself out before trying to hit 10's all weekend.
For the record I am NOT saying I am resistant in theory to dry fire as a valuable training aid. I am only wondering how it compares to, um, whatever those things are called which use explosives and bigger pieces of lead. Powderburners? Whatever, they don't interest me.
That said, I do feel it is an important aspect of any individual's training that they consider every aspect of the recommended procedures, even to the point of defying them for a time and seeing where different paths might lead. Without exploration there seems to me little likelihood of sustained interest. At least that's the way I work, in whatever I do. So for instance I spent two days' sessions a couple of weeks ago strictly focusing on the target, shooting with the front sight blurry. It was interesting, a refreshing change which allowed my attention in other areas of the shot process to become somewhat sharpened. I came back to focus on the front sight of course, but my scores didn't suffer much during the experiment. Within 1% of my average. I've also been experimenting a lot with speed, depending on my mood and feeling of steadiness on a given day changing from shooting within 2 or 3 seconds of achieving rough alignment, to other days allowing myself 7 seconds or even more.
Again, my results don't vary more than a percentage point or so, but this sort of workout allows be to become more aware of the variables, of my physical and psychological limitations and how these impact on patterns as they appear on the paper. Longer holds, for instance, tend to result in slightly tighter groups in the middle, with the odd really awful flier as I hold too long and heel the shot or let it drop too soon. When shooting more quickly, the groups tend to scatter around the outer 9 ring more with fewer 10's, but the fliers become rare as I'm never tired of the hold at the time of releasing the shot. No shake, no heeling, no weary drooping of the front sight. Trying to find a compromise which works for me is part of the fun, has an important role in defining my own shot plan.
Of course I'm speaking from the perspective of having only shot seriously for a year or so. My process is becoming more clearly defined every passing week. My experiments less radical than they used to be, as I discover what really works for me. I find shooting four or five 10's in a row isn't nearly as difficult as it was just a month ago, as my sight picture and general process have become more finely tuned and as I've eliminated most pistol motion resulting from triggering. I expect that over the coming year further refinements will solidify into a fairly consistent, even mundane pattern, which I won't resist of course, knowing that this mundanity will open door to even subtler areas for work. Such is this game.
Anyway, sure, I will take that challenge. Next week. This week I've got a match to shoot over Saturday and Sunday and won't be doing a lot of shooting before that. Just enough to stay sharp, but I'm still recovering from a shoulder injury and don't want to tire myself out before trying to hit 10's all weekend.
For the record I am NOT saying I am resistant in theory to dry fire as a valuable training aid. I am only wondering how it compares to, um, whatever those things are called which use explosives and bigger pieces of lead. Powderburners? Whatever, they don't interest me.
That said, I do feel it is an important aspect of any individual's training that they consider every aspect of the recommended procedures, even to the point of defying them for a time and seeing where different paths might lead. Without exploration there seems to me little likelihood of sustained interest. At least that's the way I work, in whatever I do. So for instance I spent two days' sessions a couple of weeks ago strictly focusing on the target, shooting with the front sight blurry. It was interesting, a refreshing change which allowed my attention in other areas of the shot process to become somewhat sharpened. I came back to focus on the front sight of course, but my scores didn't suffer much during the experiment. Within 1% of my average. I've also been experimenting a lot with speed, depending on my mood and feeling of steadiness on a given day changing from shooting within 2 or 3 seconds of achieving rough alignment, to other days allowing myself 7 seconds or even more.
Again, my results don't vary more than a percentage point or so, but this sort of workout allows be to become more aware of the variables, of my physical and psychological limitations and how these impact on patterns as they appear on the paper. Longer holds, for instance, tend to result in slightly tighter groups in the middle, with the odd really awful flier as I hold too long and heel the shot or let it drop too soon. When shooting more quickly, the groups tend to scatter around the outer 9 ring more with fewer 10's, but the fliers become rare as I'm never tired of the hold at the time of releasing the shot. No shake, no heeling, no weary drooping of the front sight. Trying to find a compromise which works for me is part of the fun, has an important role in defining my own shot plan.
Of course I'm speaking from the perspective of having only shot seriously for a year or so. My process is becoming more clearly defined every passing week. My experiments less radical than they used to be, as I discover what really works for me. I find shooting four or five 10's in a row isn't nearly as difficult as it was just a month ago, as my sight picture and general process have become more finely tuned and as I've eliminated most pistol motion resulting from triggering. I expect that over the coming year further refinements will solidify into a fairly consistent, even mundane pattern, which I won't resist of course, knowing that this mundanity will open door to even subtler areas for work. Such is this game.
My thanks to Seamaster for starting this great discussion on training. Brian M made a good point that struck home with me. I've been doing a whole lot of practicing, but not much training. I started a new thread asking about dry fire training for RF rather than have a bunch of different discussions about different disciplines running here. If anyone has any thought or insight into dry fire training for RF I hope you'll post them in the other thread.
Thanks,
Ted
Thanks,
Ted
Dry fire applies to all shooting. Why? You are creating the muscle memory for the feel of the trigger and also what it takes for your whole body to keep the sights still. This is the time you can work on how to focus your vision on the the front site and your thoughts on the trigger pull.
One year between Free pistol sectional matches I only shot 40 live fire rounds. The only training I did was to dry fire for 3-4 months before the sectional. I did this 3-4 days per week for about 30 mins each time. I shot a 545 and ended up second over all to John Zurek. This was the second best score I had ever shot and I only went to the range once.
IMHO I think AP and Free benefit more from dry firing because they are slow fire events only. For people like Keith who have shot thousands of rounds of rapid fire have the muscle memory of how to move through a set of targets. I am not a rapid fire shooter but I suppose it would be possible to have a pistol were you can pull the trigger 5 times and you can dry fire and move though 5 targets.
Where I have struggled to use dry fire training is shooting bullseye and have the DF training transfer to timed and rapid. works great for slow fire but when you are trying to learn the timing of getting back on target after the recoil of a 45 it is hard to duplicate this while DF'ing.
One year between Free pistol sectional matches I only shot 40 live fire rounds. The only training I did was to dry fire for 3-4 months before the sectional. I did this 3-4 days per week for about 30 mins each time. I shot a 545 and ended up second over all to John Zurek. This was the second best score I had ever shot and I only went to the range once.
IMHO I think AP and Free benefit more from dry firing because they are slow fire events only. For people like Keith who have shot thousands of rounds of rapid fire have the muscle memory of how to move through a set of targets. I am not a rapid fire shooter but I suppose it would be possible to have a pistol were you can pull the trigger 5 times and you can dry fire and move though 5 targets.
Where I have struggled to use dry fire training is shooting bullseye and have the DF training transfer to timed and rapid. works great for slow fire but when you are trying to learn the timing of getting back on target after the recoil of a 45 it is hard to duplicate this while DF'ing.
I've spent a week doing at least a match worth of dry fire per day (60 shots plus 10 to 20 shots warm-up), and the 46m trigger still feels a lot like squashing a bug when there's no air to push. There is a much cleaner, shorter 'snap' of release when live firing. Perhaps it's just mine, no idea, as I've never fired another 46m.trinity wrote:Gerard, I have not dry fired the IZH46 very much, but in my memory, it did not feel significantly different than live firing. Perhaps other IZH owners can speak out here, does the IZH's dry fire mechanism work differently than its live fire system?
As I said, spent the week doing as you suggested, spending about an hour, sometimes a bit longer, dry firing on either blank wall, blank paper (back of target), spot on wall, or normal target. I've not noticed any change, no improvement, in the way I perceive sight alignment or trigger smoothness. I suspect that this might be a more valuable pursuit with a better pistol, where the dry fire trigger action was identical to the live firing trigger action. Still, I did find dry firing valuable in another way; owing to the very limited free times I have at home between my wife not wanting to hear loud popping sounds and my almost 6 year old son running around like a maniac and routinely calling to ask if he can show me something, it was very useful to be able to practice silently late in the evenings when I'm otherwise not able to shoot. Not exactly the same mindset that late though, so perhaps there is another factor in the way of finding value in this. Not too many matches are scheduled for after 11pm... Another factor which might be relevant is the fact that I already pay very, very close attention to my sight alignment during live fire, so nothing really changed with dry fire there. A test match scored by calling my non-shots ended up, kind of surprisingly, at within 0.5% of my average.trinity wrote: I challenge you to spend a week doing 1 hour of dry firing each day, and really really pay attention to the sight alignment and smooth trigger release as to not disturb the sights. After the week, report back to us and let us know if you see any more detail in your shot process. I think you will.
I am very actively seeking a better SSP pistol, preferably a Walther LPM-1, or a FWB 103, or perhaps a Pardini K58. Owing again to the at-home loudness limitations (no WAY would my wife put up with my using a PCP at home, they're just too much louder than an SSP and even the 46m startles her often) I am not really considering PCP pistols, as elegant, light, and modern as they can be. Just not an option for me. So I'm hoping soon to purchase a better model of SSP where dry fire and other elements are a bit closer to the modern standard for training and competition. Thanks for the dry fire encouragement trinity, I will certainly persist with it, though my scores have not changed at all owing to this week of it. (In fact I feel I'm struggling a bit to make my average, owing to the reduced live fire time this past week.)
Gerard,
Thanks very much for the comments and the clear explanation of what you did and the effect of dry firing on your shooting.
I have to second Gerard's comments on the feel of dry fire with the Izzy. Mine is noticeably mushier dry firing than live. That crystal clean snap I feel live firing is just gone. It may be the fact that there is no gas pressure on the trigger components. "semi-dry" firing with air, but no pellet, is a little closer to replicating live fire as far as trigger feel.
I also have an old C-20 pistol. Live and dry triggers are much closer in feel with the C-20 than the Izzy. And finally I have a quite new LP-10. Dry and live triggers are almost identical. And maybe the two are closer than that, and it's my inexperience. But I'm certain that live and dry fire feel different on my Izzy.
No, Russ, I didn't go out buying pistols chasing points. The C-20 was my first AP, and it came my way when I wrote some advert copy for Beeman, the Izzy when I was looking for something quiet. And finally neck surgery left me so weakened that I needed to get something light or give up the hobby. Not that I owe Russ any explanation. Beeman paid but quit printing fancy catalogs before my piece came out.
Thanks very much for the comments and the clear explanation of what you did and the effect of dry firing on your shooting.
I have to second Gerard's comments on the feel of dry fire with the Izzy. Mine is noticeably mushier dry firing than live. That crystal clean snap I feel live firing is just gone. It may be the fact that there is no gas pressure on the trigger components. "semi-dry" firing with air, but no pellet, is a little closer to replicating live fire as far as trigger feel.
I also have an old C-20 pistol. Live and dry triggers are much closer in feel with the C-20 than the Izzy. And finally I have a quite new LP-10. Dry and live triggers are almost identical. And maybe the two are closer than that, and it's my inexperience. But I'm certain that live and dry fire feel different on my Izzy.
No, Russ, I didn't go out buying pistols chasing points. The C-20 was my first AP, and it came my way when I wrote some advert copy for Beeman, the Izzy when I was looking for something quiet. And finally neck surgery left me so weakened that I needed to get something light or give up the hobby. Not that I owe Russ any explanation. Beeman paid but quit printing fancy catalogs before my piece came out.
It is not possible for the trigger in either of these two pistols to feel any different dry fire as to live fire. Because, in both cases they work exactly the same in either mode. The only thing is the hammer is physically blocked just short of hitting the valve stem when in dry fire mode, by that stage the trigger has released.peterz wrote:I also have an old C-20 pistol. Live and dry triggers are much closer in feel with the C-20 than the Izzy. And finally I have a quite new LP-10. Dry and live triggers are almost identical. And maybe the two are closer than that, and it's my inexperience.
Sorry to say, but it's in your head...
Last edited by j-team on Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ah yes, the old Beeman catalogues... I had a couple back in about '80-'81, while in art college. It borders on... no, it's outright embarrassing to think how often I opened a Beeman's catalogue to the FWB 65 page. But I never got around to putting it at the top of my priority list - I had a couple of Leicas and a few of their wonderful lenses, and man, German optics can eat up a starving art student's night shift salary pretty quickly. So I didn't take up target shooting at 19, waited until I was 49. Progress is slow and interrupted by a shoulder injury, but hey, Russ says age isn't an important issue in 10m AP! And we all know how seriously we should take Russ... So I'm gunning for the Canadian team sometime in the next few years. And discussions like this one are, to me at least, rather important in aid of that goal. Thanks for your input PeterZ, and too bad about the unpublished article. I've only had a couple of things formally published but it feels good when it happens, especially so when the paycheque arrives.
My comment refers to your comment regarding the C20 and LP10. I'm not familiar with how the Izzy works.Gerard wrote:If you say so. That's not what I'm feeling through many hundreds of dry fire shots in the past week. It seems almost like two different guns. But if you say so...j-team wrote:Sorry to say, but it's in your head...