scientific study based teaching in shooting

seamaster · Post by **seamaster** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:53 am

Hot off the press on stance width study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21916795#

Anyone has a collection of this type of science studies based teaching on shooting?

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:58 am

Great item!

Optimum appears to be about a foot (casual standing?) Perhaps we'll see a few less ridiculous stances on the firing line.

peterz · Post by **peterz** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:04 am

They want $34.50 to download. Does anybody have an 'unlocked' copy?

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:40 am

From a shooter's point of view, everything you need comes right up.

If you're a researcher...good luck.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:04 am

If you really want a surprise then take a look at the last part of the abstract on this page.

This report was written by 3 highly respected, qualified and widely published sports scientists.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:31 am

"We conclude that the participants were able to shoot at the target with greatest success when not having maximal visual attention on where the pistol was aimed and that suppression of visual attention during the final seconds of the pre-shot period is a necessary prerequisite for automatic shot execution, as controlled by mechanisms of intention."

?????????????????

Dang, all I have to do is not pay attention? That's easy! No wonder I'm having so much trouble learning this sport. Now that I know the secret, Olympics here I come!!

Roger

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:55 pm

I think the link provided by Levene says that the shooters were looking at their sights and not the target (for their best shots).

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:19 pm

Rover wrote:I think the link provided by Levene says that the shooters were looking at their sights and not the target (for their best shots).

"....suppression of visual attention during the final seconds of the pre-shot period is a necessary prerequisite for automatic shot execution, as controlled by mechanisms of intention."

The full study, coupled with discussions with 2 of the authors, was a real eye-opener, although most of it passed a couple of feet above my head.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:15 pm

I haven't read the article carefully yet, but I have noticed something which sounds like the phenomenon they are studying. I always strive to maintain focus on the front sight - I have ADD, so it's usually a struggle - but every now and then I lose focus on the sight and almost zone out for an instant and that's when the shot goes off. I can't call it, but it is usually a lot closer to the center than I would have expected. I haven't tried to control it because I had no clue it was desirable. I just assumed that I had made compensating errors.

It doesn't happen often, but enough that I can tell that it's not the same as breaking concentration - that almost always gets me what I deserve.

It's hard to explain, but if other shooters here think they have had the same thing happen, please speak up.

Roger

LesJ · Post by **LesJ** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:50 pm

RandomShotz wrote:I haven't read the article carefully yet, but I have noticed something which sounds like the phenomenon they are studying. I always strive to maintain focus on the front sight - I have ADD, so it's usually a struggle - but every now and then I lose focus on the sight and almost zone out for an instant and that's when the shot goes off. I can't call it, but it is usually a lot closer to the center than I would have expected. I haven't tried to control it because I had no clue it was desirable. I just assumed that I had made compensating errors.

It doesn't happen often, but enough that I can tell that it's not the same as breaking concentration - that almost always gets me what I deserve.

It's hard to explain, but if other shooters here think they have had the same thing happen, please speak up.

Roger

You may want to read this: http://www.pilkguns.com/anatoli.shtml

LesJ · Post by **LesJ** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:55 pm

"First, forget aiming as an independent process, let the trigger action be your priority.

Second, trust your stability, which is always better than it seems. You can confirm this in SCATT, otherwise you can take my word for it.

Third, when lowering the pistol to the Shooting zone, start the movement of the index finger, without interrupting it until you release the shot, and then a little more.

Fourth, our objective is keeping the wrist as still as possible and not allowing any other movements to occur other than the arc of movement."

I think the "third" is to start the trigger movement, before you start to concentrate on sight aligment.

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:00 pm

scientific study based teaching in shooting...
Someone once said: “it takes a genius to live a simple life” ;)
Good luck with practical implication of this plain explanation

paulo · Post by **paulo** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:52 pm

Center of gravity affects balance.
30 cm stance seems to help performance.
Try it.

BenEnglishTX · Post by **BenEnglishTX** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:03 pm

RandomShotz wrote:...every now and then I lose focus on the sight and almost zone out for an instant and that's when the shot goes off. I can't call it, but it is usually a lot closer to the center than I would have expected.

...if other shooters here think they have had the same thing happen, please speak up.

Normally, I loathe "Me, too" posts yet, in this instance, it seems entirely appropriate.

To be honest, though, my experience is not a good indicator of anything. I'm a lousy shot and my active competition experience is severely out of date, like a couple of decades. I have, however, started up again within the last 3 months (Retirement is great!) and I've definitely noticed the phenomenon you describe...just not often enough. :-)

peterz · Post by **peterz** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:11 pm

I understand what's happened, but I can't reliably put myself in the positive condition where it will happen. But once in a while... everything slows down, the front sight seems very large, sharp, and clear and with all the time in the world "God" pulls the trigger. Certainly I don't release the shot consciously; I don't even know when.

Brian M · Post by **Brian M** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:02 am

RandomShotz wrote:It's hard to explain, but if other shooters here think they have had the same thing happen, please speak up.

Roger

Maybe this shows some ignorance on my part, but I would expect that every shooter who's found their way to this forum should be having those "Automatic" shots. Even after taking lots of time off (18 months) from shooting, the first time I picked up the pistol again I still had at least 1 shot that I was just witnessing instead of influencing.

As for focus, on those automatic shots I find that my eyes are NOT focused on anything in particular. This is something carried over from motorcycle riding, but you can do it while driving too to just test and see. While on a straight road with minimal distractions (deserted), look forward but don't focus on anything in particular. Be aware of your peripheral vision. With practice, you can drive everywhere like this, and the odd thing is you'll spot stuff like animals, kids playing, bicycle (and motorcycle) riders more easily... thus making the experience safer. Anyway, I "see" the same way when my perfect shots occur. I've had as many as 7 happen in one competition before. The frustrating part is Knowing that I'm capable of having 60 (or 6000) of those in a row if I could just turn off that part of my mind that wants to control everything.

Anyway, those shots are the epitome of why I shoot. My primary goal is to enjoy the sport, have fun, and there is nothing that makes me feel better than having one of those shots occur.

Brian

orionshooter · Post by **orionshooter** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:42 am

Brian wrote....."Witnessing instead of influencing". .........I like it Brian!

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:07 am

Brian:

I think the point that the researchers brought out was not that the trigger release was automatic, but that there is a difference in the alpha waves of the visual cortex that indicates that the front sight is not in sharp focus at the moment of release.

As a new shooter who found his way to this forum, one of the first things I learned here was to focus on the front sight and hold it in focus through the entire process. The idea that the loss of visual focus is not the same as loss of focus on the process and may be the best way to shoot is news to me. Now that I know it is desirable, there may be a way to favor that state. In the very least, I won't be pissed at having broken concentration at the last instant and tossed a lucky shot that means nothing.

Perhaps instead of asking other shooters if they've experienced this, I should have asked whether anyone has learned to control it, or at least favor its happening.

Roger

RN Hawkins · Post by **RN Hawkins** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:23 am

I am the author of this stance width study. If anyone has any questions, please let me know. I will be glad to answer them. This study was one of four experiments I conducted for my PhD dissertation. All have been submitted for publication in scientific journals. Email address is: rnh1953@aol.com

kirtar · Post by **kirtar** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:08 pm

RN Hawkins wrote:I am the author of this stance width study. If anyone has any questions, please let me know. I will be glad to answer them. This study was one of four experiments I conducted for my PhD dissertation. All have been submitted for publication in scientific journals. Email address is: rnh1953@aol.com

If only my university had a subscription the databases/publications to view this... It shows up on EBSCO, but like pubmed it only has the abstract.

TargetTalk