Round Between Cleanings 1911 Bullseye Gun

[ServicePistol]

I've read that unnecessary disassembly/cleaning of a 1911 target pistol just leads to extra wear to frame-to-slide clearances & barrel-to-slide clearances.

Couple of questions for you Bullseye shooters:

1) How many rounds do you put through your 1911 between cleanings?

2) Is there any truth to the above theory?

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Tim

[TonyT]

Grime and grit would cause more wear than disassembly and reassembly in my opinion. I clean my pistol after every match or 100+ rounds.

[oldcaster]

Usually someone with a Bullseye pistol will use a spray cleaner and not take it apart every time. We do take the extractor out while the slide is on the pistol and clean that. If you have a rod in your spring it is easy to take the slide off and not take the barrel bushing out so it can be cleaned pretty well and put back together. The only thing that would actually wear from taking it apart is the bushing to slide fit. Before the barrel is removed the front of the barrel should be cleaned so the last sixteenth or so of the barrel doesn't have grit on it and mess up the inside of the bushing. I finally put a new bushing on my Baer that I bought new maybe 20 years ago and the fit to the slide was fine but to the barrel was too loose. Slide to frame is still fine. I can't even guess how many rounds went through it. Usually about a quart of empty primers a year.

[yellowing]

The marine manual specifies every 500 rounds for accurized pistols

[trulyapostolic]

Around 3 thousand. I noticed the bushing to slide fit loosens quickly by cleaning after every or every other range session. I just keep the oil flowing in the gun (a tightly fit Caspian custom build) and she runs without any issues. I do add a couple drops of oil to the brass casing on the top of every magazine to keep the chamber wet.

[trulyapostolic]

The marine manual specifies every 500 rounds for accurized pistols

Just out of curiosity, where would one find this info?

[gulliver62]

I try and apply a little bit of logic to the subject.

Do you really believe that taking the gun apart adds wear compared to the extreme pressures, temperatures and forces exerted when firing it? Think about what happens to the slide-frame, barrel link, slide stop during firing.

The .45 is a precision tool with parts precision fitted. What other precision tools do you know of that you want to be dirty?

Anyway, your cleaning cycle is going to be based on the bullet type and powder you use. I shoot Bullseye which is dirtier than some. I tend to get a lot of filth in the extractor channel, firing pin area etc after about 400-500 rounds. I also shoot copper bullets at the long line and lead at the short line which will foul the barrel more quickly. There is some complicated chemical reason about the lead adhering to the copper residue but basically it means my barrel needs to be cleaned more often.

So, I take mine apart about every 400-500 rounds. I do not disassemble the trigger area.

[trulyapostolic]

What I have observed is the bushing to slide fit loosens quicker with more frequent cleanings. Of the many custom 45's I've had built this has been a consistent observation. To answer your first question, Yes.

To answer your section question, I usually run 7500 miles in between oil changes on all my vehicles. Now, I do use synthetic oil which extends the intervals significantly. But, I know of no engine manufacturer that requires oil changes every 500-1000 miles. Most engines are very precisely made these days.

I also shoot Bullseye powder with swaged lead bullets. Areas accessible from the ejection port, every couple hundred rounds, have 'debris' removed using q-tips and dental tools. I have found, using my own Ransom Rest, that my gun shoots just as well completely filthy as it does when it has been completely disassembled and made spotless clean (after a magazine of fouling rounds). Have you ever tested your guns to see when the accuracy degrades?

I used to be a clean freak myself, prior to shooting Bullseye. I thought it was necessary to clean after every range session. But I have learned, ignoring my own 'logic', through experience that this precision machine, if kept well oiled, will run flawlessly MUCH longer than most people give them credit for.

[Freepistol]

. . . To answer your section question, I usually run 7500 miles in between oil changes on all my vehicles. Now, I do use synthetic oil which extends the intervals significantly. But, I know of no engine manufacturer that requires oil changes every 500-1000 miles. Most engines are very precisely made these days..

Aren't you constantly cleaning your oil with a filter?

[gulliver62]

As I expected, someone wants to argue the point. Love the "Have you ever tested your guns" to lend credence.
Wouldn't be a shooting conversation if someone just couldn't stand that someone doesn't do what they do.

I think you will find many answers to the question. My wad gun bushing still has to be driven out with a hammer after dozens of cleanings.

I have found no need to try and get my gun more filthy and then test it as it maintains accuracy the way I do it now. Makes no sense to me. I don't clean a gun so much to keep it accurate, I clean it to make sure it doesn't malfunction. I can't remember the last time I had an aliby that might be related to cleaning. For most of us, even if the group were to widen by 0.5" at 50 yds. that's not what keeps us from scoring. The '7's' are what keep us from scoring. Using a normal distribution pattern on the shots, unless I broke every one in the X ring, the likelihood of me shooting a 10 that becomes a 9 is roughly equal that of shooting a 9 that becomes a 10.

My suggestion is to take the advise of everyone (including myself) with a grain of salt and find what works the best for you. When you have a method that keeps the question of an aliby completely out of your mind so you can focus on the trigger, you have a good regime.

I'm also going to have to start tracking the miles I drive between oil changes to the # shots fired through my wad gun between cleanings. I didn't realize there was a correlation.

[trulyapostolic]

I think testing is a valid point. Do/have you ever tested any ammo prior to using it in a match? More than likely you've run many rounds through your guns to verify their accuracy with a given load, whether it be centerfire or rimfire. Based on the tone of your response I must have hit a sensitive spot. My question wasn't aimed at finding fault but for you to justify why you do what you do. If you found an accuracy degradation it would then justify your hypothesis. If not, or you refuse to test a little, then it's become a sacred cow.

I've had a couple malfunctions with my guns, but all have been attributed to something dumb I did while reloading. At the 3k round mark I only clean my gun because I can't stand to look at it any longer. I would be interested to know, but don't really want to try it, and learn if the gun could go 10k rounds between cleanings. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just curious. If properly lubed these pistols will continue to function as the workhorses JMB designed so many years ago.

My aim in responding initially was to answer the questions using my experience. I have no desire to push my methods onto anyone else, just share experiences. If that offends anyone, then sorry, you have a problem.

I do like the response on the engine filter, honestly. But, what color does the oil come out compared to when it went in?

[oldcaster]

I believe there can be a wide varience to how dirty a gun gets how fast just by what is being shot in it. The lighter the load, the dirtier it is because the brass lets gas leak past it into the action. Some powders are dirtier. The kind of lube used on a cast bullet makes a lot of difference. I think the best way to say it is clean it when it looks too dirty or if it alibis. Preferably just before. It can be cleaned real well without taking it apart if you feel that is important. Completely immersing the gun in mineral spirits works well. Just don't dunk your scope.

[rstriano]

I have never heard anyone try so many times to argue in favor of firing a dirty gun as a way of reducing wear. The environmental dust, grit, grime, residue from discharging a load all adhere to oil. There is no sense to your argument other than justifying not cleaning your gun. Clean oil gliding on clean surfaces works best.

[rstriano]

I have never heard anyone try so many times to argue in favor of firing a dirty gun as a way of reducing wear. The environmental dust, grit, grime, residue from discharging a load all adhere to oil. There is no sense to your argument other than justifying not cleaning your gun. Clean oil gliding on clean surfaces works best.

[Isabel1130]

I have never heard anyone try so many times to argue in favor of firing a dirty gun as a way of reducing wear. The environmental dust, grit, grime, residue from discharging a load all adhere to oil. There is no sense to your argument other than justifying not cleaning your gun. Clean oil gliding on clean surfaces works best.

There is only one thing wrong with this theory. There is only one occasion where I am shooting a clean gun with clean oil on a clean surface.

That time is the first round out of the gun immediately after I have cleaned it. After that it is "dirty".

So the real question here is how dirty are you going to let the gun get before you clean it again?
My answer is, it depends. On your powder, your ammo, your lubrication, and your gun.

I have full length guide rods and my bushings never come off. I clean the barrel, the slide, the magazine well, and pull both the firing pin and extractor for cleaning every 200-400 rounds, which means two matches max. That seems to guarantee pretty good functioning, (unless I screw up my reloading or find myself outdoors at 38 freaking degrees when Center fire is starting.)


Wear does not seem to be a problem. I have one 45 that is probably 15 years old. It is still tight and still shoots better than I do.

[rstriano]

OK so not to beat this to death BUT i have a new Les Baer and would say i have several thousand rounds through it. I take it apart and clean everything every 200 rounds BUT i am new and have never removed the firing pin. I don't know what the extractor is.

How important is cleaing the firing pin?

When is dissasemble have i removed the extractor?

Thanks

[oldcaster]

Cleaning the firing pin and extractor is easy. When looking at the back of the slide whether it is on the gun or not take a small screw drive and while the action is locked back push the firing pin a quarter of an inch or so and the flat piece of metal will slide down until it touches the screw driver. At this point remove the screw driver and pry the flat piece down until it slips off the firing pin. Careful because the firing pin will fly out backwards. You could lose the spring that is around the firing pin also. At this point, you will see where this piece of metal slid through the extractor and now the extractor will slide out to the rear but likely need to be pried out with a screw driver. Once that is out clean the two holes that are for the firing pin and extractor with a 22 cleaning brush and around the place where the extractor used to stick through the slide and grab the cartridge. When fininshed cleaning put the extractor back in so the groove lines up and install the spring and pin in its hole and push the firing pin down so the piece of metal will slide up to the firing pin. You might have to wiggle it a little to get it lined up. At this point, finish pushing the piece of metal into the slot over the firing pin while you remove the screwdriver and it will pop into place. Finished

[rstriano]

WOW that's a terrific answer! Thank you!

Hope it all goes back together LOL

[Isabel1130]

A couple of additional comments to Oldcasters helpful reply.

It is extremely easy to get the firing pin out. Harder to get it back in correctly. Practice sliding the metal tab that holds it in place in and out of the slot to make sure you are putting it back in the way it came out. This is much easier to do when you don't actually have the firing pin and spring in the gun with tension on it. When you do reinstall the firing pin, wear glasses so you don't smack yourself in the eye if and when you lose control of the spring.
Also the extractor must be perfectly straight and alighted with the inside edge of the back of the slide or you will never get the metal tab that holds the firing pin to go in correctly either.
In addition, the firing pin spring does not go on either way. It goes on one way and will stick a little when it is seated correctly. If it does not stick on the base of the firing pin, it is in backwards.

[rstriano]

OK so i get it i guess. Maybe i'll go to the gun shop and let them show me the first time. That's what i did about the disassembly for cleaning it beofre i tried after the Les Baer's manufacturers "break in" period.

Gotta say i love this sport even at 55 having never fired a pistol. Any feedback on an MCP 1911?? I just bought one today and Nick was very helpful.

Thanks again Isabel.