A correction of my posts
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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2650 Plus
A correction of my posts
Reference DAM B post on int pistol forum . Never have I used the expression " Release the shot " The shot sequence I learned to use and the one that served me best was 'Plan tne shot, mentally execue the shot in the same rythem as you physically execute the shot, establish the NPA , execute the shot in the following sequence: start the pressure on the trigger before settling into the aiming area, settle and establish your minimum movement, start perfecting sight allignment , and let the shot break while you are holding your stillest and while you have almost perfected sight allignment. There seems to be a danger if absolut perfection is achieved before the shot breaks and I believe higher scores result if the shot is delivered just as close to the moment when sight allignment nears perfection as possible. Good Shooting Bill Horton
I like your explanation.
"almost perfected sight allignment"
You have to learn how to change word "almost" in your description toward something different. After that you can see elevation on your own performance up to 10-20 points. It can depends on your current level of performance. I like your explanation Bill.
You have to learn how to change word "almost" in your description toward something different. After that you can see elevation on your own performance up to 10-20 points. It can depends on your current level of performance. I like your explanation Bill.
I interpret the phrase "almost perfected sight alignment" as reflecting that a constant hold on the perfect sight alignment is impossible when standing with free arm extending, and that a shooter will fluidly be moving the pistol in and out of perfect sight alignment.. hence the use of "almost" - right?
Popeye
Popeye
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2650 Plus
Post correction
The last post is correct except fot one issue. I believe thet I am actually closer to Russ and his post than I orriginally posted. My goal is to be moving into perfect sight allignment as the shot fires. I actually believe that this may be closer to Bryan Zins description of his shot sequence than I orriginally thought and may be the most perfect method of delivering the shot. As many of you know, I am convinced that the fundamentals of shot deliver varies only slightly no matter what the discipline may be Good Shooting Bill Horton
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
almost perfect
I agree with Russ. I am not looking to release my shot at almost perfect. I want perfect . I understand my hold and trigger pull will not always be perfect but again I want PERFECT. I feel the mental part of this post varies from person to person depending on how good your hold is.An older or out of condition shooter might just be able to only picture ALMOST perfect because his hold is unable to give him perfect sight alignment or his mental attitude has him thinking he is unable to be perfect so ALMOST is good enough (settleing for a 8 or 9). When I begin to think ALMOST ! bells go off time to abort the shot. If Hold, trigger pull and sight alignment are as close to perfect as I can get the odds of that shot being a ten are as close to perfect as I can get... (If I made sense to just one of you Im in the black.)...Bill Hortons statement is one of the most important posts if a shooter understands it. ALSO I believe his statement reflects how 570 plus shooters r able to shoot, thats the point I guess I was trying to make. The closer you get to shooting like Bills post suggest the closer you get to shooting over 570
emphasis is important
It looks to me like there is a significant difference in emphasis expressed here. Brian Zins emphasizes - and I think Bill Horton is saying the same thing - that you must fully commit to the shot BEFORE everything is perfect. On your way towards perfect, as it were. If you wait until everything is perfect to commit, the shot will occur sometime later when everything is no longer perfect.
Others are emphasizing that everything must be perfect when the shot is fired. They may believe they are saying the same thing as Brian and Bill, but the emphasis on everything BEING perfect tends to influence the shooter to wait until perfect is perceived and recognized - i.e. too late - before committing to the shot.
I'm confident I'm correctly stating what Brian Zins has said many times. I hope Bill will correct me if I am misstating his thoughts.
FredB
Others are emphasizing that everything must be perfect when the shot is fired. They may believe they are saying the same thing as Brian and Bill, but the emphasis on everything BEING perfect tends to influence the shooter to wait until perfect is perceived and recognized - i.e. too late - before committing to the shot.
I'm confident I'm correctly stating what Brian Zins has said many times. I hope Bill will correct me if I am misstating his thoughts.
FredB
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
Bills last remark, "just as close to the moment when sight alignment nears perfection as possible" I believe is right on the mark. I believe (I cant speak for the man) that Brian Zin would agree with that. The better the shooter the closer to that moment the shot will be released. If you are a great shooter you can tell when that moment is going to happen and you also know when you missed it. Sometimes you are sitting right in the middle of that moment and you realize it but you know its to late and to pull the trigger now would be a mistake. Remember 98 out of 100 shooters cannot shoot over 570 .When one is explaining how to shoot one must explain at the right level. I can teach math to a 3rd grader and do it correctly, Then teach more advanced math to a 10th grader and do it correctly. Then take that same 10th grade math and teach it to a 3rd grader (everything done correctly) and the 3rd grader doesnt get it....If you are unable to see or perform the hold of a great shooter you will not totally understand" Bills last remark"
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orionshooter
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:36 am
- Location: Rocky Mountains of Colorado
I agree with Fredb....both in his interpretation and application of the Zins philosophy. The shot plan must include complete confidence that a perfect shot will occur and you must must must commit to it BEFORE it happens. Any indications that the plan is not developing should result in an aborted shot.
Bravo Fredb.
Bravo Fredb.
Being coachless since 1976, I have spent years shooting and striving for my own description of my shot process. Turns out I am just repeating what has been said by the greats all the time. What I have gained, is my own understanding of what they always have said.
The late great Don Nygord has a good article "Releasing the Shot"
http://home.comcast.net/~k2a/nygord.html
Piddubnyy - For me, aim and stability are one and the same thing. The best shooter is a vise - if we steady the pistol in a vise, the problem of aiming disappears. The shooter must turn into a vise, but this is not possible and we go back to the idea of compromise.
Blankenship - The experienced shooter has many shots break when the gun is almost motionless, and this is what the new shooter must be striving for in his performance. But when the gun still moves slightly he must accept this movement, always attempting to hold the weapon as still as it is possible for him to do so. As the new shooter progresses in his training, he will learn what movements he can expect and those that will cause a bad shot. The important thing to remember is that the shooter must always be trying to hold the weapon as still as he possibly can, with perfect sight alignment.
AMU - The greatest possible degree of equilibrium and stability of the shooter's body and weapon with the least possible strain on the shooter's muscular system, and the smallest movement possible of any part of the body, the shooting arm and the pistol.
Joyner - The theory of shooting is simple: You create a machine rest with your stance, grip and breath control. Then with the gun in the machine rest, you apply pressure directly to the rear until the hammer falls. In practice we sometimes find our machine rest wobbly because it has a brain and can count scores and anticipate wins. Through experience and practice you must make the brain machine-like also. …..The pistol arm should be extended directly toward the target. The wrist is locked without strain, (this requires practice), the elbow is locked also but with no sense of strain or tenseness. The gun and arm supported by the muscles on top of the shoulder, (the trapezius group). Try holding a ten or fifteen pound weight out in the firing position and feel the top of your shoulder where the arm joins and you will find the small hard muscles that support your gun arm. You should feel that the pistol is hanging from above, and not that you are pushing it up from below.
McMillan - When the pistol comes up on target, the wrist, elbow and shoulder of the shooting arm should be locked into one piece.
Toney - Hold this sight alignment as perfectly as possible and bring the complete sight picture to bear on the point of aim.
Young - Trigger control to me is the most difficult in the good shooting process as ideally it is the only movement one wants in firing a shot with all guns.
Reeves - You’ll that they boil down to basic marksmanship theory. Good sight alignment, steady aim, careful control of trigger movement and honest scoring. …..Consistent, uniform, scrupulously exacting sight alignment, building up the human being so he can hold that sight alignment against the smallest possible aiming point or area, and moving the trigger enough to fire the pistol with no practical amount of disturbance to the alignment of the pistol itself, these things are what count.
Tony ? - Two different mentors of mine have said that the (proper) grip is the entire foundation of any pistol shooting….. An excellent grip takes a lot of problems out of play and allows you to focus on trigger control. …..When you have a relatively fast and deliberate trigger pull, with a lot of other distractions out of the way, it's amazing what you can do by letting your subconscious go on autopilot. Master a good grip and it'll allow you the time and opportunity to experiment with different types of trigger executions.
Poppe - Don't jerk, don't flinch, don't heel, don't look at the target, and so on. Its no wonder that by the time we get done with the don'ts we can't pull the trigger. Just to touch on one point. Grip can go a long way to over come many of the problems. A list of the things a good firm grip can do for you.
1. Sight alignment
2. Maintain control timed and rapid fire
3. The firmer your grip the less wrist movement you have.
Steinbrecher - The main goal of a proper stance is to provide stable and consistent support for the entire body so that it can hold the gun as steady as possible as well as recover from recoil quickly with little movement. …..Like some other fundamentals, finding the stance that works for you is not given enough attention. But once found and habitualized, a proper stance becomes natural and automatic and leaves you free to concentrate on other things.
The late great Don Nygord has a good article "Releasing the Shot"
http://home.comcast.net/~k2a/nygord.html
Piddubnyy - For me, aim and stability are one and the same thing. The best shooter is a vise - if we steady the pistol in a vise, the problem of aiming disappears. The shooter must turn into a vise, but this is not possible and we go back to the idea of compromise.
Blankenship - The experienced shooter has many shots break when the gun is almost motionless, and this is what the new shooter must be striving for in his performance. But when the gun still moves slightly he must accept this movement, always attempting to hold the weapon as still as it is possible for him to do so. As the new shooter progresses in his training, he will learn what movements he can expect and those that will cause a bad shot. The important thing to remember is that the shooter must always be trying to hold the weapon as still as he possibly can, with perfect sight alignment.
AMU - The greatest possible degree of equilibrium and stability of the shooter's body and weapon with the least possible strain on the shooter's muscular system, and the smallest movement possible of any part of the body, the shooting arm and the pistol.
Joyner - The theory of shooting is simple: You create a machine rest with your stance, grip and breath control. Then with the gun in the machine rest, you apply pressure directly to the rear until the hammer falls. In practice we sometimes find our machine rest wobbly because it has a brain and can count scores and anticipate wins. Through experience and practice you must make the brain machine-like also. …..The pistol arm should be extended directly toward the target. The wrist is locked without strain, (this requires practice), the elbow is locked also but with no sense of strain or tenseness. The gun and arm supported by the muscles on top of the shoulder, (the trapezius group). Try holding a ten or fifteen pound weight out in the firing position and feel the top of your shoulder where the arm joins and you will find the small hard muscles that support your gun arm. You should feel that the pistol is hanging from above, and not that you are pushing it up from below.
McMillan - When the pistol comes up on target, the wrist, elbow and shoulder of the shooting arm should be locked into one piece.
Toney - Hold this sight alignment as perfectly as possible and bring the complete sight picture to bear on the point of aim.
Young - Trigger control to me is the most difficult in the good shooting process as ideally it is the only movement one wants in firing a shot with all guns.
Reeves - You’ll that they boil down to basic marksmanship theory. Good sight alignment, steady aim, careful control of trigger movement and honest scoring. …..Consistent, uniform, scrupulously exacting sight alignment, building up the human being so he can hold that sight alignment against the smallest possible aiming point or area, and moving the trigger enough to fire the pistol with no practical amount of disturbance to the alignment of the pistol itself, these things are what count.
Tony ? - Two different mentors of mine have said that the (proper) grip is the entire foundation of any pistol shooting….. An excellent grip takes a lot of problems out of play and allows you to focus on trigger control. …..When you have a relatively fast and deliberate trigger pull, with a lot of other distractions out of the way, it's amazing what you can do by letting your subconscious go on autopilot. Master a good grip and it'll allow you the time and opportunity to experiment with different types of trigger executions.
Poppe - Don't jerk, don't flinch, don't heel, don't look at the target, and so on. Its no wonder that by the time we get done with the don'ts we can't pull the trigger. Just to touch on one point. Grip can go a long way to over come many of the problems. A list of the things a good firm grip can do for you.
1. Sight alignment
2. Maintain control timed and rapid fire
3. The firmer your grip the less wrist movement you have.
Steinbrecher - The main goal of a proper stance is to provide stable and consistent support for the entire body so that it can hold the gun as steady as possible as well as recover from recoil quickly with little movement. …..Like some other fundamentals, finding the stance that works for you is not given enough attention. But once found and habitualized, a proper stance becomes natural and automatic and leaves you free to concentrate on other things.
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2650 Plus
Corrections and a move to the positive
Thanks to Jack H. for his research and excellent posting. And now for reinforcement of what I believeis the path to record scores. Remove every negative aspect from your approach to shot delivery. Go positive and win competitions. Good SHooting, Bill Horton
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2650 Plus
More on positive
Please let me explain what little I learned about this issue during about twenty years of competition. Lets supose I had just shot several tens in a row and had a thought that I had to be especially careful on my next shot. In my experience this thought would cause me to slow the rythem and almost guarentee a less perfect shot delivery Even so small a mental mistake can cost the shooter several places in the competitipn. Learn all you can about how you shoot tens and indevour to deliver every shot that way Good Shooting Bill Horton