Does anyone know how much they cost? Does anyone have a ETS for home use?
Are there any companies that make/sell them in the US.
Electronic Target Systems
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Re: Electronic Target Systems
As far as I know there no US companies that make the electronic target systems. The cost of the Euro systems can vary as to what you want included, but the basic system would be around $3500 to $4000 if your supplying your own computer. You could use a Scatt or Rika (est $1600) system, but it isn't quite the same as firing live rounds.Doc226 wrote:Does anyone know how much they cost? Does anyone have a ETS for home use?
Are there any companies that make/sell them in the US.
The Noptel electronic training system allows live fire, but it optically estimates the shot location, which doesn't always exactly match the true shot placement. With the simpler "Sport" software, the errors can be more than one ring on a 10 meter air pistol target. The Rika system also allows live fire, and I suspect it may have the same issue with precision location of live fire shots, but I could be wrong.
I'm still learning how to use my Noptel system. In the more advanced software package, there is a "recoil" setting that you can adjust that is supposed to help compensate for motion of the pistol between when the system records the shot and where the muzzle is pointed when the shot leaves the barrel.
I've only used the Noptel for air pistol, but it will also work for cartridge firearms out to 50 meters. You have to place optical reflectors next to the target. At least up to 50 feet, these can just be pieces of reflective tape.
An electronic training aid is really somewhat different from an electronic target system. The training system provides info on the motion of the firearm before & after the shot so you can diagnose errors in technique, but the exact location of the shot may be off a bit. An electronic target only provides shot value & location, but it should be every bit as precise as the holes in a paper target.
I'm still learning how to use my Noptel system. In the more advanced software package, there is a "recoil" setting that you can adjust that is supposed to help compensate for motion of the pistol between when the system records the shot and where the muzzle is pointed when the shot leaves the barrel.
I've only used the Noptel for air pistol, but it will also work for cartridge firearms out to 50 meters. You have to place optical reflectors next to the target. At least up to 50 feet, these can just be pieces of reflective tape.
An electronic training aid is really somewhat different from an electronic target system. The training system provides info on the motion of the firearm before & after the shot so you can diagnose errors in technique, but the exact location of the shot may be off a bit. An electronic target only provides shot value & location, but it should be every bit as precise as the holes in a paper target.
I am sure the Noptel System is great for training especially in diagnosing problems in your shooting. However, for those that find the $2300 price tag a bit high the Rika or Scatt can probably do the same job for less ($1565). If the post really wants a Electronic Target system you can probably get a stripped down Megalink System for somewhere between $3000 and $3500 providing the person can supply his own laptop or computer. If the Megalink has gone away from their prepritory cables then you might be able to save even further.Gwhite wrote:The Noptel electronic training system allows live fire, but it optically estimates the shot location, which doesn't always exactly match the true shot placement. With the simpler "Sport" software, the errors can be more than one ring on a 10 meter air pistol target. The Rika system also allows live fire, and I suspect it may have the same issue with precision location of live fire shots, but I could be wrong.
I'm still learning how to use my Noptel system. In the more advanced software package, there is a "recoil" setting that you can adjust that is supposed to help compensate for motion of the pistol between when the system records the shot and where the muzzle is pointed when the shot leaves the barrel.
I've only used the Noptel for air pistol, but it will also work for cartridge firearms out to 50 meters. You have to place optical reflectors next to the target. At least up to 50 feet, these can just be pieces of reflective tape.
An electronic training aid is really somewhat different from an electronic target system. The training system provides info on the motion of the firearm before & after the shot so you can diagnose errors in technique, but the exact location of the shot may be off a bit. An electronic target only provides shot value & location, but it should be every bit as precise as the holes in a paper target.
Anyone who pays $2300 for a Noptel hasn't shopped around. I paid significantly less than $2K for mine. Yes, it was more expensive than a Scatt or Rika, but not THAT much more, and for me, it had definite advantages. Because the TT host sells Rika, I didn't want to "advertise" for a competing vendor.randy1952 wrote:I am sure the Noptel System is great for training especially in diagnosing problems in your shooting. However, for those that find the $2300 price tag a bit high the Rika or Scatt can probably do the same job for less ($1565). If the post really wants a Electronic Target system you can probably get a stripped down Megalink System for somewhere between $3000 and $3500 providing the person can supply his own laptop or computer. If the Megalink has gone away from their prepritory cables then you might be able to save even further.
If anyone wants to know where I got my Noptel, they can PM me.
Well you may not be advertising directly, but none the less your still offering to undercut the host.Gwhite wrote:Anyone who pays $2300 for a Noptel hasn't shopped around. I paid significantly less than $2K for mine. Yes, it was more expensive than a Scatt or Rika, but not THAT much more, and for me, it had definite advantages. Because the TT host sells Rika, I didn't want to "advertise" for a competing vendor.randy1952 wrote:I am sure the Noptel System is great for training especially in diagnosing problems in your shooting. However, for those that find the $2300 price tag a bit high the Rika or Scatt can probably do the same job for less ($1565). If the post really wants a Electronic Target system you can probably get a stripped down Megalink System for somewhere between $3000 and $3500 providing the person can supply his own laptop or computer. If the Megalink has gone away from their prepritory cables then you might be able to save even further.
If anyone wants to know where I got my Noptel, they can PM me.
So what - a cheaper offer is always just three clicks away.
Re: Electronic target systems - my advice is, stay away from them. Our club has a SIUS 25m and 50m system, since 1998, and nothing but trouble. Costs are incredible, and service is incredibly bad. And we heard similar stories from people using other brands, as well. We are changing back to a mechanical system now...
Re: Electronic target systems - my advice is, stay away from them. Our club has a SIUS 25m and 50m system, since 1998, and nothing but trouble. Costs are incredible, and service is incredibly bad. And we heard similar stories from people using other brands, as well. We are changing back to a mechanical system now...
I totally agree with your assessment of the extraterrestrial prices of SIUS. They are not high, but EXTREMELY high. But it's the first time I read a complaint about bad services in their homeland.
What exactly are or have been the failures of the company in this respect, in your resp. your club's experience?
Thanks, Alexander
What exactly are or have been the failures of the company in this respect, in your resp. your club's experience?
Thanks, Alexander
Last edited by Alexander on Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
They make promises, especially regarding the future costs of things, that they can't keep. They are unable to keep an adress book or manage phone numbers, so they usually don't call back, or if they do, the wrong person. The service people turn up when they want to (meaning, when they are not away for some world cup), not when they are needed (which is all the time). You can have (and dearly pay for) a service "subscription" (covering the yearly services etc.), but still every few years some guy from SIUS will turn up, declare your installation's state "desolate" and try to charge you a fortune to keep it running. Their pricing is a ripoff - we found alternative sources for some of the consumables at 20% of SIUS' price (not 20% off, but 20% of!). Our system is only 12 years old, but SIUS will not give any guarantee on anything, even on newly installed parts. Certain technical problems are "unresolvable" without further explanation. We cannot shoot 9mm on five consecutive targets, as more than one target may be (and often is) triggered by a 9 mil. SIUS has no explanation for this, they can't solve it, and in fact we didn't have this problem for the first 8 years. Their answer was that we should wait for their new laser scoring system and trash the old one. We have reinstalled a mechanical 25m block instead and use this for the serious competition now, as some shooters even have started to mistrust the electronic system's results.
The problem with all electronics is just that - unless you have someone with an MSc or better in Electronic Engineering, you're largely tied into the vendor's service system.
I can't speak for quality of service or customer care as I've never dealt with that side of it, but I can see there could well be issues as every system is proprietary and technical support can only really come from the vendor (other than some mechanical parts like the rubber strips).
Reliability will depend on your installation. Realistically you need a properly fitted permanent installation - humping semi-permanent targets in and out of a target shed before and after each shoot is not only a PITA, but also does the relatively delicate sensors and electronics no good whatsoever.
With Gehmann box changers and whatnot, they're electrical - two copper cables with a switch and a motor fed by a transformer or a 12v battery - the simplest circuit in existence, extremely easy to fault-find and maintain.
The one thing I would hold up at the moment though is the Laser systems that are coming through - Meyton's system, and the Suis LaserScore. Okay, they're very expensive, but give them a few years and the prices will drop - furthermore there are no mechanical parts to break, and unlike the current acoustic-based systems (or mechanical target changers), there are no consumables - whether rubber rolls or card targets. All they need is a power supply.
The other question Doc, is you say you are after a scoring system, not a training system. Do you mean this system would only be for competitions, or would be used for training (but where you don't need a trace and the other data you get from SCATT/Rika/Noptel?). A common comment I hear is "Electronics... great if you want a score..."
For training/general club usage, cards are still good - you can take them away, look at them - although granted, you can take away print-outs of shoots on electronics.
You can also see how the ammunition is tearing the card - for example, we had a club rifle which had crown problems. Since it was mostly used by novices, the poor scores it shot went unnoticed. However, when we spotted that it was tearing messy and even oval shot holes, we realised there was a hardware issue and got it to a gunsmith - we'd never have picked it up on electronics because after all, who inspects the rubber belts? Not the shooter! Okay, you should be keeping an eye on the condition of club equipment, but cards are a useful first-indicator that something is going wrong.
I can't speak for quality of service or customer care as I've never dealt with that side of it, but I can see there could well be issues as every system is proprietary and technical support can only really come from the vendor (other than some mechanical parts like the rubber strips).
Reliability will depend on your installation. Realistically you need a properly fitted permanent installation - humping semi-permanent targets in and out of a target shed before and after each shoot is not only a PITA, but also does the relatively delicate sensors and electronics no good whatsoever.
With Gehmann box changers and whatnot, they're electrical - two copper cables with a switch and a motor fed by a transformer or a 12v battery - the simplest circuit in existence, extremely easy to fault-find and maintain.
The one thing I would hold up at the moment though is the Laser systems that are coming through - Meyton's system, and the Suis LaserScore. Okay, they're very expensive, but give them a few years and the prices will drop - furthermore there are no mechanical parts to break, and unlike the current acoustic-based systems (or mechanical target changers), there are no consumables - whether rubber rolls or card targets. All they need is a power supply.
The other question Doc, is you say you are after a scoring system, not a training system. Do you mean this system would only be for competitions, or would be used for training (but where you don't need a trace and the other data you get from SCATT/Rika/Noptel?). A common comment I hear is "Electronics... great if you want a score..."
For training/general club usage, cards are still good - you can take them away, look at them - although granted, you can take away print-outs of shoots on electronics.
You can also see how the ammunition is tearing the card - for example, we had a club rifle which had crown problems. Since it was mostly used by novices, the poor scores it shot went unnoticed. However, when we spotted that it was tearing messy and even oval shot holes, we realised there was a hardware issue and got it to a gunsmith - we'd never have picked it up on electronics because after all, who inspects the rubber belts? Not the shooter! Okay, you should be keeping an eye on the condition of club equipment, but cards are a useful first-indicator that something is going wrong.
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Thomas Monto
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:01 am
- Location: Midland, MI
Electronic Targets
I have a Megalink System and I can tell you that I did not pay $3000 for it More like $1300, comes with many rolls of paper and aiming circles. I use an old laptop. There are a few quirks with it, but nothing major. I would unconditionally recommend it to anyone.
Work great!
TM
Work great!
TM