Sights far apart or close together?

[Mike M. (as guest)]

I've been pounding on a plateau in AP for about five years. I can shoot a 530 +/- 8 points - but can't crack 540. Over the years, I've tried both a Steyr LP10 and a Morini, with the same results.

I'm wondering if I should change the front-to-rear sight distance on my Steyr and give that a try. but am I better off with the longer baseline, or a shorter one that puts both sights in the same optical plane?

Frustrated shooters want to know... :-)

[David Levene]

I have the front sight on my Morini 162EI set as far back as possible.

I no longer shoot as much as I should, resulting in an inability to lock the front and rear sight alignment as steady as I would like. With the shorter distance between the sights that unsteadiness is not as noticeable as it would be if the sights were further apart. This makes me more confident in the sight alignment resulting in a more confident trigger release.

Sights set far apart are fine, provided that you have the fine muscle control to hold them steady. Youthfulness, fitness and training all play their part. I lose out on all of those, giving me a normal score in the 535-545 region.

[RobStubbs]

I'm of the opinion that sights close together is best. For most shooters we don't have the hold stability to derive any theoretical benefit from a longer sight base - that leads to overholding seeking the 'perfect' steady hold. It's also not necessary. The shorter sight base is perfectly fine to be able to differentiate between 9's or 10's and even x's.

Rob.

[Fred Mannis]

Since you are thinking about playing with your sights, you might also consider changing the front sight width and/or the rear blade aperture.

Why do you think the sights are limiting your ability to improve, rather than some other factor like hold or triggering?

[Mike M.]

I've tried adjusting sight width...things got worse.

And when you're stuck on a five-year plateau, you have to break free or give up the sport. I've tried everything else. Now it's time for desperation measures.

[lastman]

I know this is probably not what you want to read.

Is is possible you're trying too hard to break through the 540 barrier you have imposed on yourself.

You can play around with you sight all day, the difference you will get is probably a couple of points here and there.

A shorter sight radius will allow you to put more shots towards the middle of the card by reducing some of the wild ones i.e it will give you more 9's. A longer sight radius will give you greater accuracy but will pronounce your errors a bit more i.e more 10's but more 8's too. The results won't change too much.

The only way you will improve is to forget about the barriers. Focus on developing your shot process, try as hard as you can to replicate that shot process every time and be mindful of every shot you shoot.

I'm sorry to say that there is no such thing as a quick fix, hard work and lots and lots of patience and determination.

Good luck

[RobStubbs]

Mike,
Have you sought a coach or gone to any of the various training sessions / camps ? Those will be of far more use than trying to find the magic fix, that really doesn't exist.

Rob.

[customs954]

Unfortunately most of us mere mortals aspire to great shooting and hopefully have a lot of fun along the way. Most will never get there as it is a difficult sport shooting, otherwise you would not see the same individuals at the top. Please dont "give up", continue to enjoy the good company shooting provides. For myself the shooting is only part of the hobby, the rest is the appreciation and marvel at the fine equipment we use, and the pride of ownership in that equipment. I bet when you get to the magic 540 one day you will laugh and wonder what all the fuss was about. Have a great holiday season everyone.

Rob

[FredB]

I've been pounding on a plateau in AP for about five years. I can shoot a 530 +/- 8 points - but can't crack 540.

Mike,

IMHO if you can shoot 538, you can shoot 540. From what you have written, it sounds to me like you have set the number 540 in your mind as some kind of difficult barrier. It's just a number. The 4 minute mile was such a barrier for many years; then once it was broken, everybody started doing it. It's all about expectations.

HTH,
FredB

[Gwhite]

In order to shoot close to 540, you either have to be unbelievably good at shooting 9's, or you shoot quite a few 10's. Concentrate on how you shoot the 10's; What do the sights look like? How long did you hold? What was your trigger squeeze like? Follow through? etc. Get to the point that you recognize what a 10 looks & feels like. If you pick up the pistol & it doesn't feel or look like a 10, put it down & start your shot process over again.

You know how to shoot 10's, you just need to do it a bit more often.

[Brian M]

You know how to shoot 10's, you just need to do it a bit more often.

Don't we all? Meaning, we ALL have shot 10's, usually several in a row (I was doing it even when shooting in the 520 range). If you can shoot 1, you can shoot 1000, in a row even. You just have to get out of your own way. :) If anyone manages to do this, let me know how you did it, m'kay?


It's mental. I remember struggling like the Dickens to break a certain point level to get my Distinguished Expert classification as a Jr rifle shooter. I'd get within a point or two all the damn time, THEN a close competitor of mine, that I always beat, broke that score limit. That was all it took for me, knowing that I was a better shooter... I then obliterated that barrier and don't think I ever shot UNDER that limit again (as well as never losing to my friend again... heh).

Shooting is 99% mental. You have the best pistols available, if you've ever shot even 1 ten then it's not your form. Mental is a tough aspect to crack, though a Good coach (not necessarily one you have to pay for) can help substantially. Thankfully, mental for rifle is the same as mental for pistol so you have a wider selection of potential coaches. If you don't know where to start, find a local Jr program and see if you can assist and pick up a little coaching on the side.

[Mike M.]

Well, practice so far (after taking my Steyr and moving the sights as far apart as possible) is encouraging. I'm getting some flyers, but more 10s and deep 9s. Tonight's practice was 187/200.

[Richard H]

Mike, what does a practice/training session consist of for you? How has the training progressed over the last 5 years (how has it changed, what are you doing different)?

I suspect that your training is whats holding you back as opposed to sight distance.

[Mike M. (as guest)]

My normal AP practice consists of firing 2-3 sighters, then 20 shots for score. I try to do this 4-5 nights/week.

Yes, I probably should push to 30-shot sessions.

[Fred Mannis]

My normal AP practice consists of firing 2-3 sighters, then 20 shots for score. I try to do this 4-5 nights/week.

Yes, I probably should push to 30-shot sessions.

When training with the pistol (as distinct from PT such as holding exercises) I try to shoot at least as many shots dry fire (at a blank wall and/or at a reduced target) as I do live fire. This allows me to concentrate on specific issues e.g. alignment, stance, grip, etc. I find it hard to do that when live firing as my mind tends to wander towards score/shot placement.

[RobStubbs]

My normal AP practice consists of firing 2-3 sighters, then 20 shots for score. I try to do this 4-5 nights/week.

Yes, I probably should push to 30-shot sessions.

To get better you need to train and not practice. Doing the same thing even as often as you do will not of itself help you improve. Better spend the time perfecting the technique, i.e. one night focus on smooth trigger release, the next on follow through, etc. Add in some longer sessions - 100 shots is good, and see how it progresses.

Rob.

[PETE S]

I have not been shooting nearly as much these days as i the past. I am more of a runner these days doing 1/2 marathons, 10K runs etc. As I have learned more about training for these running events, I am amazed at how far behind shooters are versus other sports in training techniques.

I rarely if ever run the distance I am training for. I do not run 1/2 marathons when training for the 1/2 event. I train four or five days a week, 20 to 30 miles per week. But each day is a particular training goal/purpose. Two days a week are called "Easy Runs," 4 to 5 fives well below the race pace just for conditioning. Heart rate 120 to 130, pace one to 2 minutes less than the race pace.

Another run is a long run, perhaps 10 miles again at a moderated pace. This is for the stamina in a longer race. Another night is speed work, a combination of sprints to improve speed and running form. The last night is a "tempo run", just below my race pace, heart rate near or at 150 bpm. Tempo runs are to build up the ability of the muscles to handle lactic acid build up.

Shooting training should be similar. But little is in the literature or discussed much. We have to take the actions of an individual good shoot and train on the individual tasks LEADING to putting them altogether. Dry firing is not a act of practising without live ammo but is a series of drills to improve the ability to steady the wrist, focus on the sights, how the shoulder and arm steady on the target etc. Then combine a few of these individual elements. Then some live fire with attention to the element you trained on that week.

[Richard H]

Pete and Rob are right.

You need to work on skills, right now you are training yourself to be an expert at shooting 20 shots at the mid 80's to low 90's. Like Einstein said " insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".

If you want to get better something needs to change, and to do that you need to focus on technique. When athletes in almost every sport go out to train they work on skills, football players will work on parts of a play, base ball players have batting practice. hockey players do passing drills, no one goes out and plays a game every practice.

So like Rob says work on specific parts of the shot process, trigger, breathing, stance, grip. Really focus on whats going on and focus on doing what works.

[Mike M.]

OK...any suggestions on training drills? I focus on proper shot execution to the best of my ability, but any specific drills would be most welcome.

[Brian M]

OK...any suggestions on training drills? I focus on proper shot execution to the best of my ability, but any specific drills would be most welcome.

Lots of them, just put "Training drills" into the search for this site (search.php), move the button directly below that entry to "find all", and then choose the Olympic Pistol forum on the bottom left. It came up with lots of prior posts.

Reading through those prior posts WILL provide more information than the couple of people who are here to respond to this thread can offer. Training, thankfully, doesn't go out of date.