I have read all the posts regarding the plusses and minuses of the SSP, and for anyone just tuning in, I have just one piece of advice.....listen to the people that actually OWN an SSP, not someone who bought a different pistol and then became an armchair expert on SSP's.
Several points to make. 1. Read every word that Richard H has written , and take it as the gospel truth. 2. Do NOT listen to B.S. from non SSP owners. and 3. Check the engineereing credentials of anyone that trys to tell you that the SSP is made like a Mattell toy.
I currently own an MG2, and a Walther SSP. The engineering, and standard of finish inside the SSP is in a class ahead of any other pistol I have owned, ... the cleaning is a simple affair,...the weight is controlled by any of three different weights, including my favourite, a 140 grm. spring loaded, pivoting weight that I have not seen used before on any other production pistol.
I personally could not part with my SSP [ until the electronic version I have ordered arrives next year ] Its balance, recoil, and sight picture recovery are outstanding...and I make this statement in comparison to my MG2
Walther SSP should I or should I not
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Got something against free speech, there, deadeye dick? No doubt anyone stepping up to buy an SSP will apply their own intelligence during the decision process. Opinions from both sides about the firearm are valid. It's nice that you are happy with your SSP, others are not impressed.deadeyedick wrote:...
1. Read every word that Richard H has written , and take it as the gospel truth. 2. Do NOT listen to B.S. from non SSP owners. and 3. Check the engineereing credentials of anyone that trys to tell you that the SSP is made like a Mattell toy........
It will be interesting to see how they tackle the electronic on a semi-auto trigger a of yet I haven't seen anyone make one that is flawless (don't know about the MG2E) they seem to all have issues doubling, it's a difficult task, to dial in a delay that stops doubles but doesn't interfere with subsequent shots. Pardini has had problems, they have a new trigger out now that will hopefully fix the issue once and for all.
No pistol is the right pistol for everyone, personally I don't understand why some feel that their purchase is the only right or good pistol there is. The hope that others fail is short sighted and silly, I want every company to be successful, that will spur innovation and will be the best possible world for us shooters. I feel no need to bad mouth other manufactures products to justify my purchase. The top manufactures all make good products and seem to stand behind there products to help iron out any issues that arise with new products.
If there are issues with a product, really issues such as failures, then people should let others know.
I spent 15 years in the auto industry for a company that actually machines parts and makes assemblies. I was a quality/reliability engineer and quality manager, personally I have seen nothing in the SSP that makes me question the quality from a machining, assembly or material choice. Many people do equate heavy with good and strong and light with weak and cheap. This is so, simple as that, modern materials and practices allow parts to be lighter and stronger than they ever were in the past.
I've been in the Walther factory and can't compare it to all of their competitors but it is cutting edge in technology where many of the others are not. Walther can afford this due to there defence/LE business which pays the lions share, there's not lots of money to be made in the target firearms business (most need sidelines to survive).
So if you are buying a new pistol try all that you can, a few will pop out at you. Other things to consider are local service, and others that you shoot with that have the pistols that can help you (especially if you're new). I wouldn't buy a pistol based on some strangers recommendation on the internet, including mine, do your homework. Also remember that people that don't like something tend to be louder than those that do and it does give a skewed opinion of the the product.
Another thing I would never recommend that anyone who is starting out buy a first generation pistol as their first and only pistol, no matter from which manufacture.
No pistol is the right pistol for everyone, personally I don't understand why some feel that their purchase is the only right or good pistol there is. The hope that others fail is short sighted and silly, I want every company to be successful, that will spur innovation and will be the best possible world for us shooters. I feel no need to bad mouth other manufactures products to justify my purchase. The top manufactures all make good products and seem to stand behind there products to help iron out any issues that arise with new products.
If there are issues with a product, really issues such as failures, then people should let others know.
I spent 15 years in the auto industry for a company that actually machines parts and makes assemblies. I was a quality/reliability engineer and quality manager, personally I have seen nothing in the SSP that makes me question the quality from a machining, assembly or material choice. Many people do equate heavy with good and strong and light with weak and cheap. This is so, simple as that, modern materials and practices allow parts to be lighter and stronger than they ever were in the past.
I've been in the Walther factory and can't compare it to all of their competitors but it is cutting edge in technology where many of the others are not. Walther can afford this due to there defence/LE business which pays the lions share, there's not lots of money to be made in the target firearms business (most need sidelines to survive).
So if you are buying a new pistol try all that you can, a few will pop out at you. Other things to consider are local service, and others that you shoot with that have the pistols that can help you (especially if you're new). I wouldn't buy a pistol based on some strangers recommendation on the internet, including mine, do your homework. Also remember that people that don't like something tend to be louder than those that do and it does give a skewed opinion of the the product.
Another thing I would never recommend that anyone who is starting out buy a first generation pistol as their first and only pistol, no matter from which manufacture.
Last edited by Richard H on Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Completely disagree:deadeyedick wrote:I have read all the posts regarding the plusses and minuses of the SSP, and for anyone just tuning in, I have just one piece of advice.....listen to the people that actually OWN an SSP, not someone who bought a different pistol and then became an armchair expert on SSP's.
1. people who own something (a pistol, a car, a motorcycle...) have very often a biased advise because they consider that what they own is the best. For those people, if it wasn't the best, they wouldn't own it !
2. comments from people who tried the SSP and use something else is also very interesting, because it gives another point of view.
The sum of all those advises and comments helps to make your own choice together with the own test of the different considered pistols.
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deadeyedick
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My point is that owners of a given pistol are more likely to have a more complete understanding of that pistol, in comparison to someone who does not.
As far as free speech goes, it is a fact of life in western countries,... but close examination will show that most opinions are either ill conceived, poorly thought out, or emotional responses with very little technical accuracy. The problem for the average person is sorting the chaff from the straw, so I stand by my suggestion to pay attention to people that actually own a particular pistol. Listen to their positives and negatives, and then try it for yourself.
The designers and technicians at Walther must read some of the dribble written here and wonder why they even bother.
As far as free speech goes, it is a fact of life in western countries,... but close examination will show that most opinions are either ill conceived, poorly thought out, or emotional responses with very little technical accuracy. The problem for the average person is sorting the chaff from the straw, so I stand by my suggestion to pay attention to people that actually own a particular pistol. Listen to their positives and negatives, and then try it for yourself.
The designers and technicians at Walther must read some of the dribble written here and wonder why they even bother.
Jipe I don't think the SSP is the best pistol, it was simply one of the best for me.
I own a Ruger and I hate it and always have. Yet I will easily concede that it has good points and that some do very well with it.
This is part of the new silliness that goes on and people get entrenched in their own idea and can see any other point of view. Hence why there can be no intelligent debate, because any contrary opinion is seen as a personal attack.
I can see Zoned's point of view, he doesn't like it, no matter how I asked him he wouldn't come up with any specifics as to the deficiencies.
Now if you ask me what I like about it I will tell, if you ask me it's weaknesses I'll tell you them to.
I own a Ruger and I hate it and always have. Yet I will easily concede that it has good points and that some do very well with it.
This is part of the new silliness that goes on and people get entrenched in their own idea and can see any other point of view. Hence why there can be no intelligent debate, because any contrary opinion is seen as a personal attack.
I can see Zoned's point of view, he doesn't like it, no matter how I asked him he wouldn't come up with any specifics as to the deficiencies.
Now if you ask me what I like about it I will tell, if you ask me it's weaknesses I'll tell you them to.
I didn't because I thought my original posting was clear enough: "For me, the deal killer was the ridiculous number of parts in the thing. As well, the parts look, feel and interact like they were stamped out in a toy factory."Richard H wrote:...I can see Zoned's point of view, he doesn't like it, no matter how I asked him he wouldn't come up with any specifics as to the deficiencies. ....
For example, the trigger group uses small loop-end coil springs and crudely stamped parts with wonky bends and cuts. This is stuff you find inside plinker-grade airguns. The pistol's parts, overall, show a level of manufacturing that does not [IMO] measure up to a $2000 firearm. There is a surprising similarity of the SSP's bits and mechanisms to the guts of Walther's $350 "SP22" sport plinker. The layout of the SSP's action and internal parts appears quite space-compromised [IMO, dictated by Walther's styling committee] which adds complexity. Innovation is good, but the SSP, under the trendy esthetics, appears created to be manufactured cheaply, and it is.
The SSP was pleasant to shoot, though. Although [as I received it] it lacked the muzzle heaviness of the Pardini, it's light weight and balance allowed a much steadier hold [for me] than other standard pistols used over the years. I could get very comfortable with the weight. The grip's ergo's were adequate, but the coating relayed the same cheapness as the internals. Fwiw... apparently, if the coating is stripped there is real plywood underneath which can be finished and stippled.
If the SSP were built like most German products, it would justify the cost.
The pieces of the trigger group are lighter and similar to the P22, P99 or a Glock and others because instead of a hammer and sear it uses a striker system. A striker is a proven technology too, the springs can be lighter due to the fact the forces are less in the striker system than the hammer and sear. There are many benefits to the striker system or hammers and sears, one is there is no rotating mass (the hammer), two sears wear and do come out of adjustment.
As for lightness, I too am not a big fan of light, but the beauty of building a light pistol is that the shooter can put the weight where they want it to achieve the balance they want rather then the weight just being a function of where the heaviest pieces reside.
All pistols are designed based on space considerations if not they'd be rifles. First thing in ISSF there is a size limit on pistols the design they were achieving was a full length barrel with in the length limits.
Glocks are really light, have composite parts (you'd most likely refer to them as plastic) yet I guarantee you that a Glock will out survive any target pistol and certainly your much love Pardini, that's with out any maintenance at all stored in mud, water and ice.
As to the number of parts, what is the acceptable number of parts? If parts are added for no purpose then I'd agree with you, but it seems all the piece in the SSP serve a function.
Make sure you have spare firing pins for your Pardini and when you get slam fires it's most likely because the pin broke and is being held forward. Seen this happen more than once in around 5000 rnds or so.
By the way the grip is laminated just like many other grips such as Rinks.
As for lightness, I too am not a big fan of light, but the beauty of building a light pistol is that the shooter can put the weight where they want it to achieve the balance they want rather then the weight just being a function of where the heaviest pieces reside.
All pistols are designed based on space considerations if not they'd be rifles. First thing in ISSF there is a size limit on pistols the design they were achieving was a full length barrel with in the length limits.
Glocks are really light, have composite parts (you'd most likely refer to them as plastic) yet I guarantee you that a Glock will out survive any target pistol and certainly your much love Pardini, that's with out any maintenance at all stored in mud, water and ice.
As to the number of parts, what is the acceptable number of parts? If parts are added for no purpose then I'd agree with you, but it seems all the piece in the SSP serve a function.
Make sure you have spare firing pins for your Pardini and when you get slam fires it's most likely because the pin broke and is being held forward. Seen this happen more than once in around 5000 rnds or so.
By the way the grip is laminated just like many other grips such as Rinks.
Like Richard, I also have a lifetime of experience in metals manufacturing, particularly cnc machining. I also own a walther SSP. Every time I dismantle the gun for cleaning I find something else that has been designed with clear objectives. That's why it won a Red Dot design award. Anyone who thinks a gun such as this is overpriced should go to their local machine shop and get it priced out.
My response was not aimed at your posts but at the deadeyedick post saying that only answers of people who own a SSP (or any other pistol) should be taken into account.Richard H wrote:Jipe I don't think the SSP is the best pistol, it was simply one of the best for me.
People who tried it and decide to go for another one can also bring interesting informations.
I agree with you when you say that a striker system is very robust, I own a H&K P7 with the same system and it works very well. As you say, it has also other advantages. But do these advantage result in better results ?
One point I didn't liked when I tried the SSP is his double stack magazine very sensitive (at least ehen I tried it) to the way you put the cartridges in it. If they are not well placed, it may cause malfunctions. This is something I do not like since under the stress of a match, I can never garantee I will load it as it must be even if I know how to do it.
BTW, I do not like the unadjustable noze heaviness of the Pardini (but others likes it) and one reason I went for the Morini is its light weigth that allows me to tune its weigth and balance to my taste. Just the same that what is possible with the SSP.
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deadeyedick
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Please don't be offended by my comments Jipe. Another passion of mine is cars [both new and old ] and I have found that an overview of a cars good and bad points are usually more accurate coming from a seasoned owner, rather than someone that has taken a test drive only.
Zoned has stated that some owners are happy with their SSP's and some are not....well from this post I have the score as 3-zip so far. Three owners that are more than happy with their pistols, and two of which have a technical backgrounds that [ in my mind ] make their opinions very credible.
My personal opinion is that the SSP is the best manufacured pistol I have owned, out of 30 + pistols. The innovative features, combined with the level of machining excellence are definately more than I was expecting.
Zoned has stated that some owners are happy with their SSP's and some are not....well from this post I have the score as 3-zip so far. Three owners that are more than happy with their pistols, and two of which have a technical backgrounds that [ in my mind ] make their opinions very credible.
My personal opinion is that the SSP is the best manufacured pistol I have owned, out of 30 + pistols. The innovative features, combined with the level of machining excellence are definately more than I was expecting.
No offense at all.
Actually, I appreciated the SSP, could have bought it. There were only two points that make me choose another one: as said, the double stack magazine and also the trigger feeling. The one I tried was not bad but not at the level of the trigger of the Morini.
I appreciated very much the raked grip, the low weigth, the limited/controlled muzzle jump and fast recovery. I didn't liked the grip itself and surely not the painted one (I think it can be obtained with a laminated wood non pointed grip) but it is not a real issue since it is possible to buy it without grip and put a Rink on it.
Oh, yes, last point, in my country, it is 30% more expensive than a Pardini or Morini. But this is very much country dependent. In Germany for instance Pardini is very expensive = same price as the SSP while the Morini is at the same price as in my country, why ???
Actually, I appreciated the SSP, could have bought it. There were only two points that make me choose another one: as said, the double stack magazine and also the trigger feeling. The one I tried was not bad but not at the level of the trigger of the Morini.
I appreciated very much the raked grip, the low weigth, the limited/controlled muzzle jump and fast recovery. I didn't liked the grip itself and surely not the painted one (I think it can be obtained with a laminated wood non pointed grip) but it is not a real issue since it is possible to buy it without grip and put a Rink on it.
Oh, yes, last point, in my country, it is 30% more expensive than a Pardini or Morini. But this is very much country dependent. In Germany for instance Pardini is very expensive = same price as the SSP while the Morini is at the same price as in my country, why ???
Jipe I agree there isn't a pistol made that doesn't have both good and bad points.
The magazine can be a little finicky if you don't pay attention. just like the first time I was loading the tubular mag of the MG2 and sent a pretty arc of .22 LR cartridges down range.
The trigger on my SSP is very nice it required so care during adjustment change. not just turning one screw and your done, you have to go back and forth on a couple of adjustments to dial it in. I had it explained to me by the Walther Sports Service Dept. which made it relatively quick and painless, but I can see how it would be a pain for some especially early adopters which didn't have the insert in the manual explaining this.
Personally I like the factor grip finish and for now the grip seems pretty good to me. I like the adjustability but the down side is that the position is lost when the grip is removed. I understand that the Rink grip solves this issues.
To me the Pardini are nice and reliable but I don't care for the feel weight balance or their reliability, they are similar to a GSP in Design yet nowhere near as reliable and the step to the new is akin the the Expert in the GSP, only a minor. That said I would never steer anyone away from one, but they just aren't for me, also they don't seem as popular up here in Canada as they are in the US.
I'd really like to try a MG4 but have to see if they exempt it from the prohibited list in Canada.
The magazine can be a little finicky if you don't pay attention. just like the first time I was loading the tubular mag of the MG2 and sent a pretty arc of .22 LR cartridges down range.
The trigger on my SSP is very nice it required so care during adjustment change. not just turning one screw and your done, you have to go back and forth on a couple of adjustments to dial it in. I had it explained to me by the Walther Sports Service Dept. which made it relatively quick and painless, but I can see how it would be a pain for some especially early adopters which didn't have the insert in the manual explaining this.
Personally I like the factor grip finish and for now the grip seems pretty good to me. I like the adjustability but the down side is that the position is lost when the grip is removed. I understand that the Rink grip solves this issues.
To me the Pardini are nice and reliable but I don't care for the feel weight balance or their reliability, they are similar to a GSP in Design yet nowhere near as reliable and the step to the new is akin the the Expert in the GSP, only a minor. That said I would never steer anyone away from one, but they just aren't for me, also they don't seem as popular up here in Canada as they are in the US.
I'd really like to try a MG4 but have to see if they exempt it from the prohibited list in Canada.
Not quite sure what you mean regarding the Pardini. My first one went from 1999 to 2005 with one firing pin breakage, the second one, 2005 to current, has not had to have anything replaced. And, using deadeyedick's way of thinking, I should be allowed an opinion as I owned/own them!Richard H wrote:Maybe my second use of the word reliable should have been longevity. It's reliable in the sense that if it is maintained by replacing parts at what I personally think are short intervals it works well. Hope that makes a little more sense.
I also happen to agree with those that dislike the Walther SSP and it's Glock like trigger. The real test is who is using them at a top level as those shooters will not use a pistol that is un reliable or one that does not give them every possible chance of performing to their potential. Take a look at the pics on ISSF from World Champs and World Cups. In RF, the Pardini is by far the dominant pistol. The SSP has made a small in road into Sport Pistol though, a nice gun for girls perhaps?
I have the same position than Richard for the Pardini: I do not like the huge muzzle weigth (and it getting worse and worse: the old model had a smaller one, the Sp new a bigger one, the RF an even heavier one). But won't steer anyone away of it since a lot of shooters like it a lot.
The GSP expert, I know, this is what I used before the Morini. The grip is too vertical for me (normal, it is a pretty old design now, at the time it was released, it was considered as a raked grip) and a bad trigger (even the new type). Fragile firing pin but very cheap and relatively easy to replace. The rest is very good and reliable.
For the magasine of the SSP, it is like it is and I do not think that there is another way to make it, it is a consequence of the global architecture of the pistol. The grip located, top loading magasine has advantages and disadvantages.
The GSP expert, I know, this is what I used before the Morini. The grip is too vertical for me (normal, it is a pretty old design now, at the time it was released, it was considered as a raked grip) and a bad trigger (even the new type). Fragile firing pin but very cheap and relatively easy to replace. The rest is very good and reliable.
For the magasine of the SSP, it is like it is and I do not think that there is another way to make it, it is a consequence of the global architecture of the pistol. The grip located, top loading magasine has advantages and disadvantages.
Now I am back to my original desire the SSP. The only thing that concerns me is service here in the US. The SSP is about $300 cheaper at Champions Choice than ISS but I don't know how much CC would help if I had a problem and Neil told me that if I had an issue with the SSP the first thing I should do is contact him. Personal service like you get from ISS is definately worth something. Where would you guys send your SSP if you had a problem?
I am a "wrong" handed shooter to all you righties and was wondering how will the grip screw location affect the feel. It appears that it would be behind the trigger finger so the trigger finger shouldn't be touching the grip anyway.
I need to make a decision soon because I need to order a Rink grip and Larry's Guns is sending off their Rink order this week.
Also if I do get an SSP will you guys walk me through the trigger adjustments?
Thanks, Scott
I am a "wrong" handed shooter to all you righties and was wondering how will the grip screw location affect the feel. It appears that it would be behind the trigger finger so the trigger finger shouldn't be touching the grip anyway.
I need to make a decision soon because I need to order a Rink grip and Larry's Guns is sending off their Rink order this week.
Also if I do get an SSP will you guys walk me through the trigger adjustments?
Thanks, Scott
J-team like I clearly stated my impression is based on a very small sample that I was exposed to and my impression was further confirmed by comments of owners on this very forum that described what I thought of as a draw back as something that they thought was acceptable. I'm sure if you want to search the forum and the archive you can find the threads, I don't plan on buying one so I really don't care enough to search.
Not going to get drawn into a pissing match, the Pardini has been very successful, if you like it and t works for you then that is wonderful. If you like it then buy it. I'll say it yet once more every pistol has both positives and negatives, thats EVERY pistol. One usually likes the pistol which for them the pros out weight the cons, and that is always going to be a personal choice.
Yes the SSP is a girls gun, amazingly enough I find females far easier to coach because they focus on technique rather the gear, maybe the females like the SSP because it allows them to focus on their technique, just a thought.
It's tough to gauge the over-all suitability of a pistol by the speed with which elites adopt it. For starters elites don't jump from pistol to pistol in the search for free points like the general shooting population. They will adopt new pistols that have minor changes at a quicker rate more so than completely new pistol that could be described as having radical design changes such as the SSP and MG2. I do think over time those with the radical design, if proven to be reliable and successful in the few that do use them will gain more wider acceptance.
Not going to get drawn into a pissing match, the Pardini has been very successful, if you like it and t works for you then that is wonderful. If you like it then buy it. I'll say it yet once more every pistol has both positives and negatives, thats EVERY pistol. One usually likes the pistol which for them the pros out weight the cons, and that is always going to be a personal choice.
Yes the SSP is a girls gun, amazingly enough I find females far easier to coach because they focus on technique rather the gear, maybe the females like the SSP because it allows them to focus on their technique, just a thought.
It's tough to gauge the over-all suitability of a pistol by the speed with which elites adopt it. For starters elites don't jump from pistol to pistol in the search for free points like the general shooting population. They will adopt new pistols that have minor changes at a quicker rate more so than completely new pistol that could be described as having radical design changes such as the SSP and MG2. I do think over time those with the radical design, if proven to be reliable and successful in the few that do use them will gain more wider acceptance.