Shooting kneeling without the roll

[10meter fan]

I'm thinking about trying to shoot kneeling without the roll, to see if it will be more stable. The problem is, I know pretty much nothing about this. Does anyone have any general tips on how to do this? Any pictures of good shooters who shoot this way would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Pat McCoy]

You probably won't find any photos of "good" shooters not using a roll. Part of the job of a kneeling roll is to help stabilize the ankle. You may have too much filler in the roll if it is not coming up around part of you ankle.

What shooting books have you bought? The NRA Junior Marksmanship book is only $6 or so, and covers the basics. "The New Position Rifle Shooting" by Pullum & Hannenkrat is often available on Amazon, or "Ways of the Rifle' is available from most of the target shooting equipment dealers. Get at least one of these! Also, look for a Certified Instructor or Certified Coach in your area.

[gtrisdale]

Pat is right. You do not want to shoot without a kneeling roll. One of the keys is to have a roll filled with material that allows the roll to settle some so that it forms a "U" shape around the ankle. This helps provide some extra stability.

[10meter fan]

What shooting books have you bought?

I have ways of the rifle, and that's it.

[Pat McCoy]

"Ways of the rifle" is very good, and shows lots of variety in the positions depending on body confirmation. Look for the similarities among the positions (all use kneeling rolls), and pay attention to those shooters who are built similarly to you.

Also, go back to basics by getting into position without the rifle and finding a stable position. Don't be afraid to point in a slightly different direction than you have been used to, to see if it is better or worse. Often folks shoot to much "across" their body and knee, rather than "out" of the position. See where your shoulders are "square" to, and try dry holding there once you've found a stable position.

As gtrisdale said, the kneeling roll shoud form a U shape around your ankle.

[WRC]

If you can very comfortably sit on the side of your foot, you can shoot kneeling without the roll. Gary Anderson did. I do. (not that I am at all equating the two of us!!) The position will be quite low, your forward leg will be angled out, not straight up & down like a column. That's the first challenge. The next is that your forward foot, because of the leg angle will like to slide out from under your elbow! You'll need a good grippy mat to put that foot on. But if you aren't immediately comfortable on the side of your foot (a lot of young kids ARE), then give it up. It's not something folks can get used to. PL

[Freepistol]

I agree with WRC. When I shot kneeling it was with my foot turned on its side. My position was very stable, in fact, when I was a marksman and shooting a match at Quantico, I shot a better score kneeling than prone. Even though I am 57 now, I can still lay my foot over for kneeling positon. If you can lay your foot over, you won't need a kneeling roll.
Ben

[justadude]

There are a few points to the foot sitting kneeling position. Past the idea of being able to twist your foot, sit on it and be comfortable there is also some set of critical ratios of arm lengh, torso length and leg length.

When I was a sub junior to early junior those ratios were right so I could foot sit, prop my arm into the fleshy spot just behind the knee and have a great time. As I grew things changed so my arm would slide down the back of my thigh or my left foot would slide out front. As pointed out here, the position is very low so the lower left leg is angled forward and the forefoot has the tendency to slip. As time went on I could not get enough grip between my foot and the matt to get the postion to work.

Most kneeling rolls I have seen are overstuffed leading to an excessively high and unstable position. By the same token it should not be so low that the ankle just plain hurts. I used to regulate my kneeling roll by weighing it. After working with it for a while, stuffing in stuffing out I decided the best way to get back to a particular setting was to weight it and write that number down.

Good Luck
'Dude

[10meter fan]

Well, I tried it, and due to instability I'm going to keep practicing with the roll for now, but I'll try to get a good position without it too, just to see if it works. Right now, I have 2 problems when I try it without the roll. The first is that when I get a good seat on my foot, my right knee (I'm right handed) is strained, unless I tense that leg, but tensing it leads to instability. The second is that the end of the foot towards my toes is a lot lower than the end towards my heel, making it difficult to get a good seat without the tension problem I just mentioned. So far, the only fix I've found is to put an some extra padding, like a pillow, on the toe end of my foot, but I don't think this is legal.

Also, which way should my foot be facing? Should the toes be towards the target, at 90 degrees to the target, not to either extreme? And should my leg be out to the right or more towards the target?

[justadude]

10meter

You are correct about the extra padding. You can either foot sit or use a roll and if had a small pillow under your toes I would consider that a roll. I have not looked in a while but I recall if you are using a roll your foot cannot be more than 45 degrees from vertical or you are considered to be foot sitting on the roll which is not allowed.

In terms of the tension in your right leg, that is going to take stretching and time in the position. Unless you are about 10 years old it can take a while for the ligaments in the knee to get used to being folded double like that, especially with the lower leg turned into mild hyperextension.

In terms of one side of your foot being higher than the other, scoot your butt right and left on your foot and you will find a point where the buttock and the foot contour together nicely.

WRT the angle of the left foot and right leg, they are about parallel to each other and I would say facing about 30 degrees to the right of the line between you and the target. Your torso will be pretty close to square with the firing line. You really want to be shooting "out" of the foot sitting position rather than across it. Well, you really want to be shooting "out" of the kneeling position period.

'Dude

[10meter fan]

Often folks shoot to much "across" their body and knee, rather than "out" of the position

You really want to be shooting "out" of the foot sitting position rather than across it. Well, you really want to be shooting "out" of the kneeling position period.

I don't think I get what you guys are saying. How do I tell if I'm shooting "out" of or "across" the kneeling position?

[David Levene]

You can either foot sit or use a roll and if had a small pillow under your toes I would consider that a roll. I have not looked in a while but I recall if you are using a roll your foot cannot be more than 45 degrees from vertical or you are considered to be foot sitting on the roll which is not allowed.

7.5.1.3.9 If the kneeling roll is placed under the instep of the right foot, the foot must not be turned at an angle of more than 45 degrees.
7.5.1.3.10 If the kneeling roll is not used, the foot may be placed at any angle. This may include placing the side of the foot and the lower leg in contact with the surface of the firing point.

[justadude]

If your shoulders are square to the firing line and you are looking directly straight ahead at the target you are shooting OUT of the position.

In standing where you almost literally rest the rifle on your chest and turn your head to the side to look at the target you are shooting across the position.

You can construct a kneeling position where the left elbow is inside the left hand and the left lower arm and hand are bent outwards, the rifle then angles toward the left crossing the body and in extreme cases with the balance point of the rifle outside (to the left) of the left knee. This is shooting ACROSS the position. It is considered and inferior position to shooting out of the position.

Hope this helps,

'Dude

[Guest]

If you could post some pictures of your foot on the kneeling roll, it would help us to help you. At least a picture from the side and a picture from directly behind.

[10meter fan]

Alright, I was finally able to get in to position without the roll comfortably enough to shoot, but now I can't seem to get my arm in a good position. It seems like my left hand wanted to fall to the right, and I could never get enough support from the sling. Any ideas on how to solve this? Also, how do you guys who do use this position move your handstop? Was it further away from you or closer to you?

If you could post some pictures of your foot on the kneeling roll, it would help us to help you. At least a picture from the side and a picture from directly behind

Not sure how to post pictures, but for the most part my foot doesn't touch the roll, it's almost all my ankle. Only a bit of the top of the foot touches. The top of the toe of my shoe rests on the ground, not really at an angle. My actual toe is usually "in the air" inside the shoe.

[Soupy44]

Sounds like you need more stuffing in your kneeling roll.

[Roodaddy600]

Just work with the roll. Don't shoot without it. It doesnt matter if gary anderson shot without one, look at the scores now compared to then and on the tougher target and tell me if you still think thats the way to shoot. You won't see anyone of the elite level shooters in the world without a kneeling roll. There's a reason for that.

Shane

[Pat McCoy]

Shooting without a roll is almost impossible with normal body confirmation. As you have learned, there is no good way to get the elbow on the knee, and the forward leg is so extended there is little support. If you have real short legs, and long arms, you may be able to make it work.

Sounds to me like you have the kneeling roll in the wrong place if it is under your ankle. The kneeling roll should be under your shoelaces at the instep. If your toe is off the ground you already have too much filler in the roll. Start with the roll about half full of filler, then get into position (no gun), and see if you are comfortably sitting on the heel (with your heel on the end of your spine, between the left and right gluteal muscles). If you are pointing too high with your left hand when elbow is on the knee you can add a filler (a little goes a long way), or if you are to pointing too low you can remove a little filler.

[gwsb]

You probably won't find any photos of "good" shooters not using a roll. Part of the job of a kneeling roll is to help stabilize the ankle. You may have too much filler in the roll if it is not coming up around part of you ankle.

What shooting books have you bought? The NRA Junior Marksmanship book is only $6 or so, and covers the basics. "The New Position Rifle Shooting" by Pullum & Hannenkrat is often available on Amazon, or "Ways of the Rifle' is available from most of the target shooting equipment dealers. Get at least one of these! Also, look for a Certified Instructor or Certified Coach in your area.

Pat I guess you didn't realize Gary Anderson won the Olympics with a low kneeling. I assume you would say he is a "good" shooter. If you have read Bill Pullum's book you would have seen pictures of Anderson shooting kneeling without the roll and a description of how to do it.

[Roodaddy600]

How gary anderson shot all those years ago has nothing to do with today's scores. Let go of the past. The scores now are higher and on the harder target. So no you won't find any good shooters shooting without a kneeling roll.