Ziegenhanh and FAS

[schatzperson]

I just bought 2 used pistols I am totally unfamilar with and was wondering if anyone here can give me hints concerning:
How does the Ziegenhahn 4 rate as a shooter? It seems to be very well made, all steel, if somewhat complicated and obviously dated.

The FAS 607 looks virtually new and comes with one magazine; .32 wadcutter ammo is expensive in my area and I so far I have found just Fiocchi, hence my interest in re-loading for this pistol.
My question is about the groove diameter or what 607's shoot well with.
I can get H&N bullets, .312, .313 and .314 diameter; Weights: 90 or 100 grains. Most are just lubed lead, but there is also a plastic coated WC .314 @ 100 grains.

I have no experience with either pistol so I though I will ask around for advice.
Thanks !

[RMinUT]

The FAS 607 is a .22lr, I suspect you mean a FAS 603 which is .32long.

I feel the FAS pistols are underrated because my pistols are excellent shooters. I use a .312 bullet because all others left excessive leading, the barrel measured at .308. I use 1.3gr. of VV310 with excellent results at 25 yards.

[schatzperson]

Oh sorry, I meant 603 !
Thank you for the bore info.
One really odd thing I noticed about the FAS is that the paint/finish, on the removable barrel weight, is NOT dry !!!
It has a gummy feel to the surface I can easily remove with a fingernail !
The only explanation I could think of was that its spent so long in its original plastic case, that some oil or solvent vapour attacked the finish.
I dont believe somebody had messed with this gun, it looks simply too unused ! Beats me.

[David Levene]

You've got me confused with your reference to a removeable barrel weight on a 603. Are you talking about the barrel shroud which the barrel tube fits in to. I don't know of any other barrel weight.

As for the surface feeling gummy and coming off with a fingernail, this sounds suspicious.

I would agree that most 603s came with a .308 barrel (by design). I succesfully used either Geco or Lapua .312 HBWC bullets with 1.4 grains of Norma R1 (no longer available).

[schatzperson]

Hi David.
Yes, I am referring to the the barrel shroud.
This soft paint issue is a mystery; You can dig your fingernail in it easy.
Everywhere else its dry and hard as stone; The pistol is in very good condition; No marks of wear or use anywhere; Came in a plastic suitcase thingie; Serial no. 1589.

[David Levene]

You've got me worried talking about paint.

On all 602s and 603s I can remember both aluminium and steel were chemically blacked. Occasionally there were chrome/nickel plated slides but that was about it.

I will admit that I haven't seen any 603s that have been produced in the last few years so it is possible that they might have changed to paint. I would guess though that your gun might have been painted at some stage after manufacture.

[schatzperson]

Well, its odd though; The thing looks practically new all over and the offending barrel shroud finish though gummy, looks like very well done, almost like powder coating.
The pistol is still at the dealer, I will call for it after registartion next monday.
Bought it from a guy in Germany and had my dealer do the import ( did not want the hassle); Cost me a bit more than I would ahve liked really.
Now lets hope that a lot of people are wrong about FAS :-)

[David Levene]

Now lets hope that a lot of people are wrong about FAS :-)

Do you mean the lot of people who knock FAS or those of us who love them.

They might need a bit more TLC than other makes but they really do shoot beautifully.

[Alexander]

Both of the East German pistols, the Ziegenhahn Mod. IV and its successor the Mod. 5005 are uncommon. The 5005 is much rarer. Both were top pistols in their times, and still today are very good. They are on a level to Unique DES-69 and IZH-35 accuracywise, just MUCH better made than either.
For reviews of the Ziegenhahn, Hans Aicher + (alas) in his article for the DWJ and the DSZ would be the source. He often used it as a reference pistol. A small booklet specifically on Ziegenhahn pistols by Bruno Brukner, and a larger book with different content on Suhl sport weapons in general, have both been published recently in Germany.

Alexander

[schatzperson]

Well David, lets say I hope that the FAS is not as bad as its sometimes made out to be.
I understand the TLC bit; I am a tinkerer of sorts, up to a point.
I wanted a 32 wadcutter, mag in grip, lowish bore...The unused 603 came up sale, for 362 Euro delivered; I could not resist.
I will play with it for a while and see if it can shoot better than my garden variety Walther PP in 7.65mm :-)
I can see lots of experiments on the horizon concerning 32 ACP CF pistol.

Hey Alex many thanks for the Ziegenhanh information.
It does seem to be exceptionally well built. I simply do not have experience enough to talk about its performance though. It would be interesting to know from advanced shooters who know this pistol and can perhaps record and compare its attributes with modern top pistols.
I am very curious about quantifying essential "feel", "forgivness" and similar esotheric properties of target pistols in general.
Oftentimes, by looking back on obsolete designs, these nebulous description become objective measurments in millimeters, turning moments, milliseconds, dwell analysis etc.

But anyway, for the moment, do you have a source for the DWJ article?
Thanks.

[Rover]

The gummy paint puzzles me.

I did buy a European .22 rifle that had a coating of cosmoline, a rust preventative. A good scrubbing cleaned it up. They used to remove it from military rifles with hot, soapy water.

I hope that's your problem.

[schatzperson]

The gummy paint does not appear to be cosmoline or grease. I will have a good look at it on Monday. Thank you Rover for your feedback.

[Tony C.]

I also acquired a FAS 603 last year, the pistol haven't been shot for many yrs and in almost like new condition, except the previous owner has modified the grip.

I haven't yet slug the bore and been reloading it with .314" 98 gr. swage bullets, so far the best loads seems to be 1.8 gr. W 231. Also tried 1.5 gr. N 310, however the Vihtavuori loading guide list 1.3 gr. as max. but several of my shooter friends who used N 310 all said they never experienced any problem with loads up to 1.7 gr.

This pistol has a fairly tight chamber, lapua; Fiocchi brass some time have trouble chambering, a little drop of oil on the first round in the mag sloved the problem, but Winchester brass feed perfectly, perhaps I should try some .313" or .312" bullets, for now .314" works just fine.

[JamesH]

Either someone has repainted the barrel weight/shroud or its picked up something from the case.
I've only every seen these blacked. Occasionally they come loose from the barrel but are usually a very tight fit.

Its worth checking the recoil buffer is in good shape before you use it.

[fc60]

Greetings,

I machined a new FAS 603 barrel with a fast twist for a fellow last year. Out of curiosity, I measured the factory FAS barrel and found that the groove diameter was 0.309".

I have a set of three legged internal bore micrometers. As long as you have a six groove barrel you can measure it directly.

Ask around the shooting club and see if there are any Machinist or Tool Makers. They may have such tools at work and can help you out.

The other option is driving a soft Lead bullet through the barrel and measuring it with a micrometer. Do exercise a great deal of caution when attempting this endeavor.

Cheers,

Dave Wilson

Fabricator and shooter of fine 32 barrels.

[schatzperson]

Hi Dave,
Your three legged micrometer sure sounds like a handy tool to take bore diameters. I slugged a few barrels and sometimes its not easy to measure the resulting slug with a regular micrometer because there is little corresponding land on then oposite side.
Anyway, I have heard about your good work re-barreling 32 pistols with a faster twist.
Would it be possible for you to manufacture a FAS 603 barrel without having the pistol in hand?
The reason I ask is because its dreadfully complicated for me to export one single, entire gun and re-import it with a spare barrel.
On the other hand, buying a spare barrel is no problem!

I am toying with the idea of converting the FAS603 to 32 acp. I still do not know if it is practical to do so. Naturaly, once the barrel with the correct twist, bore and chamber is manufactured , I will still have to contend with mag, feeding, ejecting extractor issues etc. I will be looking into these issues next week sometime.

For .32 ACP use my idea is to use .309 to .311 bullets, so your new bore will have to be good for these diameters.
Twist rate can be faster than on the usual Eurogun ; It would be great to have a gun usefull also up to 50 Meters.....er yards.

If I remember correctly, somebody told me that .32 SW Long Pardinis HAVE been converted to 32 ACP and function well, so perhaps my idea is not so out of this world after all.
Thanks.

[fc60]

Greetings,

I while back I did a Pardini HP barrel on special request for a fellow that works at a major law enforcement organization that had access to a proper ballistics lab. The barrel shot well with Hornady 60 grain XTP bullets.

The bad news. It is possible to chamber a 32 S&W Long in a 32 ACP chambered pistol. Since the cartridge is not fully engaged and it is possible to pull the trigger and get it to go "bang" there is too much opportunity for something to go wrong when the rear of the case bursts open.

Therefore, I strongly advise against any such modification.

Regarding the FAS barrel, the fellow mailed me his barrel only for duplication and it worked out fine. You would be without a barrel until I can finish machining the new one.

The FAS is 6.00 inches long and you may get excellent results with H&N bullets at 50 yards with carefully assembled hand loads. I suggest the use of Winchester WST, VV N320 (three-twenty), Winchester 231, Alliant Bullseye powders that have performed well for me in the past.

Chronograph some Lapua 98 grain commercial ammo and use the velocity as a maximum for your reloading.

Also, use an expander button that is 0.313" in diameter to load the H&N 0.312" bullets. The springback of the brass (I use Lapua brass) provides a nice friction fit between the case wall and the bullet. Crimp only as needed to provide reliable functioning.

With kind regards,

Dave Wilson

[schatzperson]

Hi Dave,
Actually I was considering converting a FAS 603 from 32 S&W long to 32 ACP not the other way bround.
Your quote:
"The bad news. It is possible to chamber a 32 S&W Long in a 32 ACP chambered pistol. Since the cartridge is not fully engaged and it is possible to pull the trigger and get it to go "bang" there is too much opportunity for something to go wrong when the rear of the case bursts open. "

It might be possible for me to send you just the 32 S&W FAS barrel so you can manufacture a .32 ACP one.
Can you import my barrel into the US and then export the original barrel and your new 32 acp barrel to Europe ?

Is there any way at all you can manufacture a FAS 603 barrel without me sending you my original ( maybe you can borrow or use some other ).

I will PM you for more details.
Thanks in the meantime !

[jbshooter]

Schatzperson,
Can you put some close-up photos of your Ziegenhahn on targettalk?

[Alexander]

This is the booklet which I had mentioned: