Muzzle/Recoil Direction

[BartP]

Hello all,

I have a question for the pros out there regarding recoil.

I shoot with a geometry similar to Warren Potent. My rifle, in prone, has always been canted - prob more than most. My sights are offset to accommodate and my spirit level keeps me consistent.

I am currently working on trying to get the muzzle to jump vertically during recoil. But I'm confused a bit. If the gun were straight up and down in my hold, the recoil WOULD be vertical. So if it is canted, shouldn't it follow that my recoil would also be diagonal along the angle of cant?

The only aspect of my position that I can alter with success (the right number of 10s!) is my right shoulder height. Typically, my right shoulder is pretty low and I am spread out a bit. This would seemingly enhance the diagonal recoil. By raising the buttplate (and my shoulder) and bringing my right elbow back and under me more, shouldn't that reduce the lateral element of the recoil to some degree? OR...is there some other trick to acquiring a vertical recoil from a heavily canted position?

Your input would be greatly appreciated. Bart

[Dave IRL]

What I found helped was a combination of a little extra pressure from my trigger hand, elbow a little closer in, and canting the buttplate slightly until it feels like it grips the shoulder and the rifle can't rotate about that point. That's a fairly clumsy way of putting it, hard to explain better, but that worked out for me. Hilariously, since I did a positional rebuild which removed a lot of my cant, my recoil's gone pretty much sideways, very little vertical component at all, so need to tweak things again.

[BartP]

Interesting. The funny thing is that although I am pretty good shot, I get more nervous when i shoot well than if things are going slightly awry. I have had to build my position with little to no grip pressure to ensure that every muscle is relaxed for every shot. I cannot afford to change that aspect or nerve tremor during huge matches (where I have to shoot 597+ is required to even remotely THINK about a spot on the podium).

I've been using the noptel this morning. I raised the right shoulder and the buttplate to bring the right elbow in a bit. This slightly reduced the amount of natural cant and the shots were good. Of course, this is just a dry-run until I get to the range and see the direction of the recoil and how it affects my accuracy.

I use a Gemini ACTIV Buttplate. It is formed perfectly to my shoulder, so there are no issues there.

Still wondering what the consensus is on cant and recoil direction. Any takers out there? Bp

[David Levene]

Still wondering what the consensus is on cant and recoil direction. Any takers out there? Bp

Just guessing but I wouldn't have thought the angle of the stock would have much effect on the direction of recoil. Wouldn't that be more affected by the direction of pressure on the stock? (As I say, just a guess, but it sounds logical to me)

[Guest_66]

Well, the barrel twist makes your rifle twist the same way, so imagine and translate that movement into your specific position/settings, perhaps that wil give you a clue.

(It twists around the line of bore, so normally the buttplate twists in two directions, if you have set it in the middle of the line of bore).

Also, you have to count in all contact areas of the gun. Not only the butt plate, but also the hook itself (touching any side?), the left hand, the cheek piece contact and the pistol grip. All of them have a lot of influence in your recoil.

In my opinion, the way the recoil goes doesn't matter, as long as you shoot good :)

[2 Cents]

IMHO cant is an accuracy killer, the laws of physics in recoil make it so. center of gravity of the rifle, mass of the gun, the mass of the bullet, etc .Here are a few links I found on the on this forum that might explain the impact of cant on accuracy. TY Gerard for posting these. Keep the cant to a minimun. If shooting at 50ft NP. But at 50m/50yd or 100m/100yds, nnless your a pro top level elite shooter cant might tweet your scores some. Even then, body build, muscle structure, equipment type and your basic postion structure may dictate that you need cant, lets not overdo it. Dont forget that the butt plate can move horizontally too. I did that, took out 90% of my cant and my groups tightened up, position was "tighter", cheek weld fuller.

http://www.arld1.com/impactpointvscantangle.html
http://home.wanadoo.nl/jhogema/skeetn/b ... ntel1e.htm
http://home.wanadoo.nl/jhogema/skeetn/b ... ntexp1.htm
http://home.wanadoo.nl/jhogema/skeetn/b ... antlos.htm[/url]

[2 Cents]

Cant is an accuracy killer IMHO. The laws of physics cannot be disputed. Center of gravity, mass, inertia, recoil etc. You can get away with cant at 50ft. But at 50m/50yds or 100m/100yds you can not. You must keep it to a minimun even if your a top flight elite shooter. They have their position so refined and balanced that what cant they use is well compensated for via sight adjustment, trigger control, sight picture and follow thru..never mind the wind dopeing as needed. I used to use alot of cant in my 3 position sb days. Then I wised up, shifted the buttplate horizontally towards me. It forced me to improve ny position build. My positions got tighter, and groups were smaller and less "strung out" Scores increased almost immediately. My cheek weld was better, position better balanced and only have a small fraction of the former cant. My standing scores had the best improvement as the laws of physics based on my position, equipment etc were more in harmony LOL.

Below are some links to the cant subject matter. the first link is a great demonstration of point of impact vs cant angle. Thanks to Gerard for these links in another forum thread.

http://www.arld1.com/impactpointvscantangle.html
http://home.wanadoo.nl/jhogema/skeetn/b ... ntel1e.htm
http://home.wanadoo.nl/jhogema/skeetn/b ... ntexp1.htm
http://home.wanadoo.nl/jhogema/skeetn/b ... antlos.htm

[WesternGrizzly]

Ok cant doesnt affect the accuracy of shooting at all AS LONG AS ITS THE SAME FOR EVER SHOT.

Back to the recoil issue. I cant the rifle heavily and my rifle recoils straight up and straight down. it just goes DOINK and lands right back on target. if it doesnt i have to adjust my NPA. but if my NPA is lets say a 10.9 and i shoot the rifle will bounce to about the top of the scoring rings and right back to the 10.9 spot.

[David Levene]

Cant is an accuracy killer IMHO.

Sssshhhh, don't tell Warren Potent.

[BartP]

Okay. There does seem to be a consensus that cant does affect accuracy IF mistakes are made by the shooter. But the mistake that is referred to is simply when the shooter fails to keep the angle the same for each shot.

This particular mistake is not an issue for me. I use my spirit level on every shot and check my NPA meticulously on every shot. Each "check" is built into my shot process. All that's left to do is follow-thru correctly.

Thanks for your input. Bp

[Makris D.G]

Many people seem to forget...
Canting your weapon DOES NOT CANT the bullet trajectory.
The bullet will fly straight up and fall straight down along its path.
Cant is a threat to consistency not accuracy.
If one has integrated cant in their shooting, uses a spirit level, compensates
sighting corrections or even has canted his sights to the opposite direction to make them level, it will be the same. One has to decide if the extra variables introduced into the shot process are worth it.

[Dave IRL]

I'd rather have the rifle canted to bring it under my cheek so my head rests comfortably and naturally with no tension than craning my neck or turning my head to maintain a rifle without cant. I, personally, shoot better that way too.

[2 Cents]

Ok try this ... hold a pistol (a plain .22lr single shot like a Contender or a revolver just as an example NOT a semi-auto). The physics are the same as with a single shot target rifle but will illustrate the point.

Aim and shoot the pistol with the sight level and square as one should and fire. The recoil of course moves the hand, the pistol moves up, sight pic is moved, yadda yadda yadda.

Now hold the pistol canted inwards or outwards it does not matter. Say 5 degrees and fire. Does the recoil move the pistol the same way as before. Nope. The recoil follows the the same angle as the cant. Not straight up and down as some here have suggested.

The same physics that apply to the 30oz. pistol apply to the 12-15lb .22 target rifle. Until a totally recoiless smallbore rifle is invented (hmm) along the lines of a recoiless air rifle, the laws of physics will always hold sway.

I will not discount the success of some shooters that use an abundance of cant, adjustment of sights, use of spirit levels or canted sights etc and so forth. Repeatability of position hold, sight pic, trigger control wind doping and follow thru trumps nearly all. But we are taking about 1% of the sb rifle shooters in the world. The other 99% cannot practice as much, maybe do not have all the bell and whistles available. A lot of shooters are limited to 50ft so cant is really moot at that distance. Now at the outdoor distances the physics impact is expotentially greater. Sir Issac Newton was not a shooter.

[GTFS]

Hi BartP
I will put myself in the semi pro/pro category for now but I am working on it.
Does you recoil follow the line of your cant now? Because you may have answered your own question.

You should be able to see that with live fire on noptel.

If not use a normal video camera to see the recoil, but play it back in slow motion. If you use a high speed camera it is cool, but will show you much more than you probably want to see anyway. Nobody thinks they move that much!!!
You can set up a t square next to the barrel to show the angle of the recoil.
There are many things that can affect recoil angle. Like sling angle from left to right, up & down. And how tight it is. Gas & bullet dispersion angle on bullet exit from the muzzle. Hand & head pressure on the stock.

Recoil will go mostly in a straight line back until it encounters input resistance from your body and then in all of the directions it needs to to dissipate around that resistance.
Non vertical recoil is not a problem if it’s close to the same each time and you can call the shot.

I am thinking 10 what are you thinking?

Glen Turner

[BartP]

Back again.

Shot a 60 shot course this morning. Sighted in, shot 30, got up, changed my target, shot another 30 without sighters. light but switchy wind and mirage. I used the raised buttplate/slightly raised right shoulder combination to get my rt elbow under and back a bit more. It was comfortable. It was obviously steady, and my normal cant was cut in half. 596.

Shot another 60 shot course as well. Back in old position with heavy cant. By this time, the wind had picked up considerably but score wasn't really on my mind - just the way the rifle felt.

I felt pretty solid on the first 60. I felt better on the second 60 (595). I watched the recoil on nearly every shot instead of the regular follow-thru. It definitely was less diagonal with the more vertical position - but still at a significant angle. I had some issues with the new position setup that made it harder to maintain a consistent spirit level - but that may be due to the unfamiliarity of the position itself. Going to test again tomorrow. There is supposed to be very little early morning wind for the next two days.

The problem with measuring ACCURACY is that the more vertical position is so new and is taking a bit of getting used to. It may take months of repeat sessions to measure and measure to see what is the most accurate. So, with World Championship Team Tryouts in two weeks, I'm prob going to stick with the old set-up....UNLESS I shoot a 600 tomorrow morning! Argh! :)

Bart

[David Levene]

....UNLESS I shoot a 600 tomorrow morning!

I'm sure that was a typo and you should have put "UNTIL I shoot a 600 tomorrow morning!" ;-)

[BartP]

Actually...I should have written "until I shoot ANOTHER 600 tomorrow morning"! (Shot one about 2 weeks ago. :)

[mapletune]

lol, i love you ultra positive peeps out there XD

I'm sure more would have followed if BP didn't reply so fast =P something like "WHEN I start shooting 600's steady tomorrow" heh

anyway, good luck on weather and let us know!

[Guest]

Bart,

I've gone over position work, recoil, etc for over 2 years now with the best shooters and coaches in the US. From what theyve told me and I've come to realize more and more is if you like it, it works for you, its consistent, and you shoot it well, what does it matter? Yes a 596 is not a 600, but I can tell you by just training it more the right way and getting your mind in the right spot will give you the extra points you need. Unless there is a consistency problem which you seem to NOT have, I would keep it the same. Your body is used to it, world championship selection is in a week and a half, no need in giving yourself a tweak that you have to get used to and cut out more valuable training time.

For instance, look at Rajmond Debevec. That guy has some of the most awkward positions anyone has ever seen. Yet he still owns the world record in the 3x40 and has for 18 years with those quirky positions because he trains it right and has his mind ready for anything.

[Makris D.G.]

2 cents:

You are incorrect in most assumptions.
What discipline you shoot?