I'm brand new to this site and fairly inexperienced ( < 6 months) but very dedicated to 10m air rifle. Trying to figure out a problem that is starting to drive me crazy :)
Up until 3 weeks ago I was shooting my best, for me this is about 530 on a full match. Normally then I would hit lots of 10s,9s, and then some 6s and 7s. On those 7s, sometimes it felt like the POI was completely off where I would expect it to be, other times I knew I was throwing the shot off. But at least I was consistently scoring my best ever.
Now I feel like I am shooting better .. holding better on target, but I hardly hit the 10 any more and it has me boggled. It has been like this for 3 weeks. I shoot mostly 9s and 8s, and rarely anything under or higher. I have dropped about 20 points on average. A few days ago, I put about 40 shots into the target over a few short relays, almost all of my shots were grouped in the 8 and 9 rings, and just a couple in the 10. Even luck would dictate that I would hit the 10 in that size grouping and # of shots. :)
I have been trying everything I can think of, and getting advice from others around me, but unfortunately there is not enough time for lengthy experimentation. Mostly been trying to be as consistent as possible, trigger pull, follow through, natural point of aim, etc.
btw I usually shoot 2 nights a week, and I average about 30-40 careful shots per night over 2 relays.
Sorry for the long-winded description. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave
Help I can't hit the 10 anymore
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
Thanks for the posts and advice, I will see if there is some way I can test the accuracy. If the barrel needs to be cleaned, could this possibly cause a "sudden" drop in accuracy? I forgot to mention I am using an LG380.
Except for those I do call, the poor shots tend to be random in any direction. Sometimes they start mini-groups. This being said, they hardly stray below the 8 ring so the overall grouping is tighter than my old groupings before I started noticing the problem. If I do detect a pattern I try to adjust my sights, but it is short lived and I just end up chasing my tail.
If it is an accuracy problem, I have a new air rifle on order anyway so that should resolve that problem. However I have a match coming up in a couple of weeks and I probably won't have the new rifle in time. A very frustrating time to lose 20 points! :)
Dave
Except for those I do call, the poor shots tend to be random in any direction. Sometimes they start mini-groups. This being said, they hardly stray below the 8 ring so the overall grouping is tighter than my old groupings before I started noticing the problem. If I do detect a pattern I try to adjust my sights, but it is short lived and I just end up chasing my tail.
If it is an accuracy problem, I have a new air rifle on order anyway so that should resolve that problem. However I have a match coming up in a couple of weeks and I probably won't have the new rifle in time. A very frustrating time to lose 20 points! :)
Dave
A good guess would be orings on a LG380. I really have no way of knowing, but it seems likely. I think the host of this board may have the orings, or could do a rebuild for you. You may also want to run it across a chronograph for standard deviation, and nominal speed. I don't know the spec on the 380, but I thought it was 600+, but again, that is guess.
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melchloboo
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:24 pm
I went through a similar patch, twice.
The first time my sight base came loose without me noticing. I have a fwb300s and the action slides back to dampen recoil, the sight was wiggling during the sliding. Tightened the screw and all was well.
The second time I was inconsistent with my grip during triggering. Once I corrected it I started nailing 10s again. Never really caught the problem by calling shots...that was before I had a scatt. However, I did shoot my rifle from a bench to be sure it wasn't the rifle...when I saw 5 pellets make one hole I knew it was me.
The first time my sight base came loose without me noticing. I have a fwb300s and the action slides back to dampen recoil, the sight was wiggling during the sliding. Tightened the screw and all was well.
The second time I was inconsistent with my grip during triggering. Once I corrected it I started nailing 10s again. Never really caught the problem by calling shots...that was before I had a scatt. However, I did shoot my rifle from a bench to be sure it wasn't the rifle...when I saw 5 pellets make one hole I knew it was me.
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melchloboo
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:24 pm
It was inconsistent grip and also inconsistent grip tension. I was probably tensing other fingers besides the trigger finger during the shot as well.
If your rifle has a dry fire capability, then sometimes these problems are easier to see in dry fire than live fire, even if you are fairly good at shot calling.
If your rifle has a dry fire capability, then sometimes these problems are easier to see in dry fire than live fire, even if you are fairly good at shot calling.
As melchloboo suggested, test fire your rifle off a bench or other SOLID support. This is to isolate if it is the rifle or you.
One thing about bench shooting. If the LG380 is anything like my FWB-300, you have to hold the stock firmly into your shoulder, so the sledge can properly recoil w/o moving the stock.
gud luk
A few thoughts.
- Check that the front sight to see that the locking ring has not backed out, or the insert will move about.
- Check that all the screws securing the action to the stock are "properly" tightened, not loose or too tight.
- Is there any difference in what you do DURING the day before you shoot? I find that shooting at the end of the day is affected by what I do during the day, both physical and mental. My best shooting is in the morning.
- Trying too hard can actually make the problem worse. What is happening is subconsious negative reinforcement.
- Could you be subconsiously jerking the trigger when the sight is centered, so by the time the sear is released, the sight has moved away from the 10. That would explain the lack of 10s.
- A good coach can frequently see a problem that you are not even aware of.
- Try borrowing someone elses rifle and shoot 20 shots and see what the shots score. This can be hard, because if a rifle with an aluminum frame w more adjustements than your LG380 is not set up for you, the fit can be so bad that you end up fighting the fit to try to shoot.
One thing about bench shooting. If the LG380 is anything like my FWB-300, you have to hold the stock firmly into your shoulder, so the sledge can properly recoil w/o moving the stock.
gud luk
A few thoughts.
- Check that the front sight to see that the locking ring has not backed out, or the insert will move about.
- Check that all the screws securing the action to the stock are "properly" tightened, not loose or too tight.
- Is there any difference in what you do DURING the day before you shoot? I find that shooting at the end of the day is affected by what I do during the day, both physical and mental. My best shooting is in the morning.
- Trying too hard can actually make the problem worse. What is happening is subconsious negative reinforcement.
- Could you be subconsiously jerking the trigger when the sight is centered, so by the time the sear is released, the sight has moved away from the 10. That would explain the lack of 10s.
- A good coach can frequently see a problem that you are not even aware of.
- Try borrowing someone elses rifle and shoot 20 shots and see what the shots score. This can be hard, because if a rifle with an aluminum frame w more adjustements than your LG380 is not set up for you, the fit can be so bad that you end up fighting the fit to try to shoot.
remove the gun from the equation by testing it.
is the movement away from the 10 in a consistent direction, or do you just have a loose group?
if you have a loose group then what size foresight ring are you using, and how did you determine that?
what did you do to remove the flyers from your shooting?
it's not unusual to find that removing the damaging flyers from the scores can change your 10 hit rate. I've been there myself. I've been able to put a good card of 10's in and blow it with some disgusting pulls, and get the same score just shooting around the pip putting consistent 9's and a few 10's in.
is the movement away from the 10 in a consistent direction, or do you just have a loose group?
if you have a loose group then what size foresight ring are you using, and how did you determine that?
what did you do to remove the flyers from your shooting?
it's not unusual to find that removing the damaging flyers from the scores can change your 10 hit rate. I've been there myself. I've been able to put a good card of 10's in and blow it with some disgusting pulls, and get the same score just shooting around the pip putting consistent 9's and a few 10's in.
Overall I think it is a fairly loose group.robf wrote:remove the gun from the equation by testing it.
is the movement away from the 10 in a consistent direction, or do you just have a loose group?
I am using a 3.6mm front sight insert. Actually one of my helpers checked that it was secured.robf wrote:if you have a loose group then what size foresight ring are you using, and how did you determine that?
What I recall is that I knew I had to get rid of the flyers because they were damaging my score. I think I have been taking more careful shots, & holding the ar in closer to my body.robf wrote:what did you do to remove the flyers from your shooting?
Actually this sounds exactly like what has happened, except I'm just not scoring high enough compared to before when I was including the flyers!robf wrote:it's not unusual to find that removing the damaging flyers from the scores can change your 10 hit rate. I've been there myself. I've been able to put a good card of 10's in and blow it with some disgusting pulls, and get the same score just shooting around the pip putting consistent 9's and a few 10's in.
I don't think it's your rifle. I've seen this before in other shooters, and it's a good sign, don't worry. It's a good thing that you're getting rid of the 6s and 7s, even at the expense of some 10s. Keep working through it and you'll soon have a sharp improvement in your scores. This s because you have gotten rid of most of your 6s and 7s, and the 10s will start coming back soon.
A drill to help you: Use a 12 bull air rifle target. Site in per usual, and then shoot at the first bull. Keep shooting at that bull until you shoot something below an 8. Then move to the next bull and do the same thing. Keep track of how many rounds it takes you to do all 10 record bulls. This drillwill get your mind off the 10s you don't feel you're getting, and will get you to realize what a not so good shot looks like.
If you want to completely get your mind off the scores of your shots, then cut out the center of the 10 record bulls from the 7 ring in and do the same drill, just change bulls when you see the edge of one of your shots in the cut-out. This is a bit more labor intensive, but can be helpful.
A drill to help you: Use a 12 bull air rifle target. Site in per usual, and then shoot at the first bull. Keep shooting at that bull until you shoot something below an 8. Then move to the next bull and do the same thing. Keep track of how many rounds it takes you to do all 10 record bulls. This drillwill get your mind off the 10s you don't feel you're getting, and will get you to realize what a not so good shot looks like.
If you want to completely get your mind off the scores of your shots, then cut out the center of the 10 record bulls from the 7 ring in and do the same drill, just change bulls when you see the edge of one of your shots in the cut-out. This is a bit more labor intensive, but can be helpful.
3.6mm for 10m air rifle would seem very tight to me...
it might (if it's easy) be worth experimenting with a larger foresight, say 4.0, if you have a set, see what happens to the groups as you change them... you don't need to zero, just see if shooting becomes easier or harder and if they're is any correlation with group size.
if you're spending a lot more care on the shots, you could be staring down those sights and losing the definition on the edge, or perhaps even not noticing you have and going for what you think is a 10, but not.
to be honest it could be a number of things... what do you feel could be causing it?
I just picked up on the sight thing because you seem to have lost the ability to call the shot, and if you're spending more time on the shot, your eyes can lose their freshness.
as said, getting rid of the flyers is a good thing, you've just found something else that you want to work on. :)
it might (if it's easy) be worth experimenting with a larger foresight, say 4.0, if you have a set, see what happens to the groups as you change them... you don't need to zero, just see if shooting becomes easier or harder and if they're is any correlation with group size.
if you're spending a lot more care on the shots, you could be staring down those sights and losing the definition on the edge, or perhaps even not noticing you have and going for what you think is a 10, but not.
to be honest it could be a number of things... what do you feel could be causing it?
I just picked up on the sight thing because you seem to have lost the ability to call the shot, and if you're spending more time on the shot, your eyes can lose their freshness.
as said, getting rid of the flyers is a good thing, you've just found something else that you want to work on. :)
Hi everybody, I summarized a number of these points, and managed to implement some of them. I also got some extra coaching tonight which I was appreciative of.
However it was an extra busy night, and after a few sighters, only managed to get a whopping 7 scoring shots on target. As expected they were all 8s and 9s! :) What I ended up with was 5 shots vertically strung to the right of the bull, and 2 shots vertically strung to the left of the bull. If I connected the shots together they would form 1cm square around the bull.
Anyway, just wanted to post my results for tonight - and thank everyone for their suggestions in the last couple of days. I have lots to work with and I'm just going to keep working at it.
Dave
However it was an extra busy night, and after a few sighters, only managed to get a whopping 7 scoring shots on target. As expected they were all 8s and 9s! :) What I ended up with was 5 shots vertically strung to the right of the bull, and 2 shots vertically strung to the left of the bull. If I connected the shots together they would form 1cm square around the bull.
Anyway, just wanted to post my results for tonight - and thank everyone for their suggestions in the last couple of days. I have lots to work with and I'm just going to keep working at it.
Dave
Grip
I would recommend making absolutely sure you ride your grip up all the way on your stock. For at least a year and half, I suffered from high shots, shots that I would call tens but would shoot up into the 7 to 6 ring (or worse). Riding my hand up the grip as much as possible took care of the problem. Also make sure that you use a firm grip, a loose grip will not do. Finally, I suggest a change in your mental game. Tell yourself to shoot an X, or a dead center shot. That way, your mistake will hopefully be a ten. You want your subconscious to shoot a ten. Be warned, this technique will work only with a good technique. Also, do not agonize over the shot. I have found this technique to work in prone and kneeling. I shoot in the mid to high 180's typically for Air gun, and the high 170's to low 180's in smallbore. For standing, I tell myself to visualize the shot, and it works most of the time.
You need a proper 1:1 coach assessment, not being in the same room as one.dmf wrote:Hi everybody, I summarized a number of these points, and managed to implement some of them. I also got some extra coaching tonight which I was appreciative of.
However it was an extra busy night, and after a few sighters, only managed to get a whopping 7 scoring shots on target. As expected they were all 8s and 9s! :) What I ended up with was 5 shots vertically strung to the right of the bull, and 2 shots vertically strung to the left of the bull. If I connected the shots together they would form 1cm square around the bull.
Anyway, just wanted to post my results for tonight - and thank everyone for their suggestions in the last couple of days. I have lots to work with and I'm just going to keep working at it.
Dave
What did you feel when you took those 7 shots? Why do you think they are forming a string, and why some were one side and some the other?
Rob is right, first of all you can't analyse 7 shots, you can make some guesses but little more, do you just have an 8 ring hold? are you moving when you take the shot? are you snatching the shot?, could be any or all or something else, to find out you need to spend some time with a good coach on a one to one basis.
If its any compensation 30 years back when I used to average 370+ air pistol I shot 360 ex 400 in a match with all 9's! not a single ten or eight! I was really pi***d, as as you say just luck you would expect some tens by holding the 9 until some one said that must be nearly as difficult as shooting a 400!
Get some coaching, its the answer.
Have fun,
Robin
If its any compensation 30 years back when I used to average 370+ air pistol I shot 360 ex 400 in a match with all 9's! not a single ten or eight! I was really pi***d, as as you say just luck you would expect some tens by holding the 9 until some one said that must be nearly as difficult as shooting a 400!
Get some coaching, its the answer.
Have fun,
Robin