Best approach to Distinguished Revolver training?

[EdM]

Good day to all.

I'm a new member here. Hoping to get started in Bullseye this year (at age 64).

I prefer revolvers and have rather limited time to train. I read the recent thread on revolvers in BE and that has me thinking of concentrating on the Distinguished Revolver program.

Don't have a target pistol as yet and undecided if I should first get a .22 to learn/practice the basics or just get a .38 (most likely the S&W 686) and learn on the gun needed for the program.

The club I joined has weekly 300 and 900 relays and I was told I could use a .38 although I believe the events are really intended for rimfire.

I've done some Cowboy shooting with a .45 so recoil is not a great concern but budget is so certainly the rimfire is appealing on that point.

Do you experienced shooters think it best to start with the rimfire or is it not too difficult to go directly to the .38?

Thank you.

Ned

[jackh]

The cost of ammo and the range time available to shoot might be the deciding factor on having a 22 revolver along with the Distinguished Revolver. A weekly club shoot probably will not be enough training time. You really need plenty of dryfire and non-match shooting to advance. Get some A-Zoom snap caps and dryfire the 38 daily.

[clark2245]

Hi Ned, and welcome to the world of Bullseye. Some people jump right in and buy all the guns and then start trying to learn how to shoot them at a bullseye level of precision, but especially if cost is a factor for you one of the classic ways to start is just with a 22. That allows you to keep the costs down with the ammo and find out if the sport is really for you before you spend too much money. The fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control will carry over from the 22 to the 38 revolver, along with the thumb action required for rapid fire. That allows you to get started and work on the basics and be able to carry what you learned over to the 38 when the time comes.

You will find that shooters at the DR matches will be happy to loan you a gun to shoot so if you go to some of the regional and state championship matches where they are usually held you can give it a try before you have a 38 revolver. The more non distinguished shooters the more legs can be given so getting a loaner is usually not a problem. You will need your own gun to get the level of practice you really need, but this will allow you to try it first.

[Scott H.]

Ed,

I shoot a revolver in my indoor league, to give me practice for DR matches. Now, is that enough to advance? I'll let you know. But, it's what I am able to do. While I hope to be Distinguished, mostly, I just like to shoot.

[Whitney]

Ed
I shoot a S&W 617 for practice at the range and also in 22 matches this give me the same feel for the revolver because I shoot a 686 for the Distinguish matches. I also shoot the revolver in the National Match during the 900 centerfire by doing this it helps me to train for the Dist and still get the time inon course fire. The S&W 617 is a great revolver and will give you great groups at 25 & 50 just my 2 cents :) hope this helped.

Regards
Whitney

[solomon grundy]

Do you experienced shooters think it best to start with the rimfire or is it not too difficult to go directly to the .38?

If you're principally interested in DR matches, and have some experience w/ centerfire revolvers, then I think that you could go right to the 38spl.

22 ammo is cheaper, but I'm not sure that it's so much cheaper as to justify the cost of another revolver.

Another consideration is that the recoil of the loads used for DR matches, which require 158gr SWC or RN bullets, are significantly greater than that of a 22. You'll want to master your technique for cocking the revolver and reacquiring the target through the recoil of the previous shot - this technique will be used during the timed and rapid fire stages of the match. I doubt that you can train for this effectively using a 22.

Also I think that it's better to train w/ the trigger that you'll be using during the match.

* take a look at the S&W K38 - Model 14 as well. You can find really nice post-war models that are very well suited for these competitions.

[Guest]

I certainly appreciate the replies.

Whitney: I gather you do not use a revolver in .45 if you participate in a 2700?

I'd really like to try a 617 and 625 for a 2700 even though I realize I'm handicapping myself. On the other hand I have no illusions about state or national championships so perhaps I should just go with the revolvers and just try for Expert level???

Ned

[Fred Mannis]

I'd really like to try a 617 and 625 for a 2700 even though I realize I'm handicapping myself. On the other hand I have no illusions about state or national championships so perhaps I should just go with the revolvers and just try for Expert level???

When I started shooting Bullseye, over 50 years ago, there were a fair number of shooters in my area who shot a revolver in CF and/or 45. With practice most did end up at least at expert level. And they enjoyed it. Learning to shoot a revolver well is a challenge as well as a lot of fun. Even though the revolver shooter is at even more of a disadvantage in IDPA/IPSC than he/she is in Bullseye, there are a number of people using them in that discipline as well. So I say go for it

[Whitney]

The statement about the differences between the 22 and the 38 is true in most cases but like I stated I use the 686 which is the same frame as the 617, I still get the same practise with the 22 as the 38 the recoil is not the same but if you work the follow through and trigger pull along with the hammer work you get a really good work out and I can shoot 22's all day, I do work out with my 686 also but I load 148's for practice. You really have the make a choice about buying another revolver but the money i spent on the 617 was money well spent. It like dryfire for practice but you get some results in regards to the impact point of the 22 :) but again it's always up to the shooter. I hope this helps.

Regards
Whitney

[2650 Plus]

In spite of an ingrained belief that self loaders made the thumb obsolete, I remember the old timers spending hours dry firing their timed and rapid fire strings. I really resented how much easier it was for them to train compared to the girations I had to go through with strings on the hammer and cocking the piece with my left just trying to practice the same courses of fire. Have fun , my friends, may you shoot many tens and enjoy every one of them. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

In spite of an ingrained belief that self loaders made the thumb obsolete, I remember the old timers spending hours dry firing their timed and rapid fire strings. I really resented how much easier it was for them to train compared to the girations I had to go through with strings on the hammer and cocking the piece with my left just trying to practice the same courses of fire. Have fun , my friends, may you shoot many tens and enjoy every one of them. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Indeed sustained thumbcocking dryfire is excellent training. Not only for the thumb but also for a quick controlled trigger pull. It is also "funner" than working the slide or using the other hand to recock the 1911. That's "funner", not Fanner 50 by Mattel

[CR10X]

If you are already capable of shooting acceptable scores, then just starting with a .38 will be ok. If you are still at the stage of acquiring more confidence in really seeing the front sight and operating the trigger then I would suggest a .22 to train in a slightly cheaper mode, and the lighter recoil will enable you to see the areas you need to improve. A good .22 revolver always has a place in your collection anyway.

On the subject of grip, the basic improvement I typically suggest is to learn to acquire the grip you have in the middle of your good timed / rapid fire strings. Most people tend to acquire the grip based on the getting off the first single action shot, then move around to recock the gun, having to shift the grip a little. Better to start off with a grip that has your thumb on the hammer, leave the grip there and get used to starting that way.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules_imag ... pistol.pdf

Cecil Rhodes

[mososodbob]

I'm a New Revolver Shooter. Breaking into the DR quest with a newly acquired S&W K-38. Only real DA shooting experience been with an Army M-9 and Sig 228 (its DA first shot and SA following).

Need TTPs (techniques, tactics, and procedures) from experienced shooters in this game.

1) Is cocking and shooting SA the way to go? Is there enough time during rapid...or do I need to work on DA techniques?

A fellow at my local club tells/showed me a PPC shooter's techniques of "stacking" the DA trigger with the hammer fall break point indexed with the trigger finger at a designated spot on the frame...reach that point, pause, and follow through to break the shot... tricky technique at best for me.

2) Understand the rule calls for 158gr SWC or RN factory or commercial "re-manufacture" loads. Can someone confirm. Also, need a good source for ammo and reload data to replicate the load for training.

3) Sight adjustment needed from the long line to the short? I've been shooting Army issued 148 WCs out of the gun and it needs elevation corrections. Will the 158s shoot "flatter"? The sight on my Smith is not real user friendly with its adjustment. Will they tolerate repeated adjustments?

Thanks in advance to all with info. This is a good site...much higher quality of informtion than I've seen in other "chat" forums.

BREAK: CR10X, thank for the tip on acquiring a good starting grip...will try that next time I have the gun out...dry firing a revolver is easier than an auto.

Regards to all.

Bob

[Fred Mannis]

1) Is cocking and shooting SA the way to go? Is there enough time during rapid...or do I need to work on DA techniques?

A fellow at my local club tells/showed me a PPC shooter's techniques of "stacking" the DA trigger with the hammer fall break point indexed with the trigger finger at a designated spot on the frame...reach that point, pause, and follow through to break the shot... tricky technique at best for me.

That's a good technique for two handed PPC shooting, but I agree with your comment - very difficult to use in one handed BE. There is sufficient time during Rapid to shoot single action.

2) Understand the rule calls for 158gr SWC or RN factory or commercial "re-manufacture" loads. Can someone confirm. Also, need a good source for ammo and reload data to replicate the load for training.

See http://www.nsksales.com/bullseye_ammo/BULLSEYEAMMO.pdf
for re-manufactured DR ammo. Neil can also help with reloading data

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[clark2245]

I'm a New Revolver Shooter. Breaking into the DR quest with a newly acquired S&W K-38. Only real DA shooting experience been with an Army M-9 and Sig 228 (its DA first shot and SA following).

Need TTPs (techniques, tactics, and procedures) from experienced shooters in this game.

1) Is cocking and shooting SA the way to go? Is there enough time during rapid...or do I need to work on DA techniques?

A fellow at my local club tells/showed me a PPC shooter's techniques of "stacking" the DA trigger with the hammer fall break point indexed with the trigger finger at a designated spot on the frame...reach that point, pause, and follow through to break the shot... tricky technique at best for me.

Hi Bob,

Most of us cock the hammer as we go even during timed and rapid fire. With a little practice there is plenty of time to cock it during recovery from recoil so you can begin the trigger pull as the sights settle back on the bull. Bullseye is a very precision oriented sport and a smooth trigger pull is an essential part of attaining that accuracy. Shooting DA just does not allow me the level of precision needed to be successful. As Cecil mentioned above start with a grip that allows the thumb to easily reach the trigger so you don't have to change anything to cock for each shot.

I'm not familiar with this PPC technique but it is not going to work well for you in bullseye shooting. The key to good bullseye shooting is in smooth trigger control where you accept your wobble area and keep trigger pressure increasing until the shot breaks. Trying to stage things then snap the shot off when things look good is a sure recipe for bad results.

2) Understand the rule calls for 158gr SWC or RN factory or commercial "re-manufacture" loads. Can someone confirm. Also, need a good source for ammo and reload data to replicate the load for training.

Neil at NSK Sales is a good source for DR ammo as mentioned above. He is a bullseye shooter who has done a lot of testing and come up with a load that works well in most revolvers and his prices are reasonable. As usual test it in yours to be sure your gun likes it. Other major ammo companies make 158 gr SWC or RN ammo that will work if you get better results with them.

3) Sight adjustment needed from the long line to the short? I've been shooting Army issued 148 WCs out of the gun and it needs elevation corrections. Will the 158s shoot "flatter"? The sight on my Smith is not real user friendly with its adjustment. Will they tolerate repeated adjustments?

Thanks in advance to all with info. This is a good site...much higher quality of informtion than I've seen in other "chat" forums.

BREAK: CR10X, thank for the tip on acquiring a good starting grip...will try that next time I have the gun out...dry firing a revolver is easier than an auto.

Regards to all.

Bob

I do adjust my sights down some when moving to 25 yards using a 6 o'clock hold. I'm told by others that use a far sub 6 hold that the adjustment may be in the opposite direction. Mine is a fairly small adjustment and if your sights are not up to repeated adjustment you might be able to change the point of aim a little to avoid the problem. A little testing should show you what to use for your technique. Hope this helps.

Clark

[Guest]

bringing this back to the top

[jackh]

Note the rule changes for 2010

CONVENTIONAL PISTOL
Rule changes effective 2010

3.1.4 - Distinguished Revolver - The revolver must be
capable of chambering and firing a 158-grain round nose or
semi-wadcutter .38 Special cartridge. It must be a factory
manufactured revolver with no external modifications except
for stocks which may be modified or changed because of the
size of the competitor’s hand or to facilitate loading. Exposed
holes that have been drilled and tapped for mounting of a
scope are not considered to be an external modification.

(e) Ammunition - Any safe .38 caliber ammunition
using the 158 grain round nose or semi-wadcutter
bullet only.



As written above, do you think loading .357 cases with the 158gr bullet will comply?

[ciscovt]

Jack H
I have sent an inquiry off to John Rickards on just that question, but I have not yet recieved a response. I think, as it is written, .357 cases would be allowable, if you chose to use them. They would still be "Any safe .38 caliber ammunition."

ciscovt

[clark2245]

Jack H
I have sent an inquiry off to John Rickards on just that question, but I have not yet recieved a response. I think, as it is written, .357 cases would be allowable, if you chose to use them. They would still be "Any safe .38 caliber ammunition."

ciscovt

This question has also come up on the Bullseye-L list so I decided to get a clear answer on the intent of the rule. I contacted Dennis Willing, about as good a source as we will find since in addition to being a referee at Camp Perry he is on the Pistol Rules Committee and chairman of the National Protest Committee. Here is his response about using 357 brass in a DR match:

"I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this but the intent of the rule was to shoot 38 spl caliber. Although the 38 and 357 are the same diameter, a referee or match director might just disqualify someone if the headstamp reads 357 instead of 38 spl. Their only remedy would then be a protest to the National Protest Committee, of which I'm am the Chairman. I would highly recommend that only 38 spl caliber be used.

I'll have this clarified at the next Pistol Committee meeting."


Just wanted to be sure no one has a bad experience at a DR match now that reloads are allowed.

Clark

[Barry G]

I would have used .357 cases because they are more accurate than .38 in my Colt .357.