Now both air rifles are on the market, can someone give me a review of those rifles? They are similarly priced, how do they compare?
I intend to buy one for my teenager for backyard training.
Which is more "beautiful", more reliable, more accurate, and less noisy (for my backyard)?
Thanks.
Crosman Challenger PCP vs. Air Force Edge
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
Sporter Rules:
4.2.1 Approved Rifl es
Air Rifl es offi cially approved for Sporter Class air rifl e competitions are the AirForce Air
Guns Edge, Crosman CH2000 (CO2), Crosman CH2009 (CO2 or compressed air), Daisy
M853/753/953/853CM (pneumatic), Daisy M888/887 (CO2), Daisy XSV40 Valiant (compressed
air) and the Air Arms T200 (compressed air) with a non-adjustable cheek-piece
and butt-plate. Any currently approved Sporter Class air rifl e that is no longer available to
junior clubs or teams at a cost of $525.00 or less will lose its Sporter Class approval when
its price exceeds $525.00. Air rifl es of that model that were purchased at a cost of less than
that may continue to be used in Sporter Class competitions. Any air rifl e not included in this
4.0 AIR RIFLES AND EQUIPMENT
9
list that complies with the requirements of these Rules must be submitted to the National
Three-Position Air Rifl e Council for approval before it can be added to the list of approved
Sporter Air Rifl es.
Air Rifl es offi cially approved for Sporter Class air rifl e competitions are the AirForce Air
Guns Edge, Crosman CH2000 (CO2), Crosman CH2009 (CO2 or compressed air), Daisy
M853/753/953/853CM (pneumatic), Daisy M888/887 (CO2), Daisy XSV40 Valiant (compressed
air) and the Air Arms T200 (compressed air) with a non-adjustable cheek-piece
and butt-plate. Any currently approved Sporter Class air rifl e that is no longer available to
junior clubs or teams at a cost of $525.00 or less will lose its Sporter Class approval when
its price exceeds $525.00. Air rifl es of that model that were purchased at a cost of less than
that may continue to be used in Sporter Class competitions. Any air rifl e not included in this
4.0 AIR RIFLES AND EQUIPMENT
9
list that complies with the requirements of these Rules must be submitted to the National
Three-Position Air Rifl e Council for approval before it can be added to the list of approved
Sporter Air Rifl es.
in stock
Just got the following email:
Per your request from 2008-08-27 we are letting you know that the following item:
AirForce Edge, Front & Rear Sights
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model ... el_id=1575
is now in stock and ready for shipping.
If you are still interested in this item feel free to order it any time.
Per your request from 2008-08-27 we are letting you know that the following item:
AirForce Edge, Front & Rear Sights
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model ... el_id=1575
is now in stock and ready for shipping.
If you are still interested in this item feel free to order it any time.
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GCSInc
- Posts: 246
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:49 am
- Location: The Ole Mill Range Complex, Griffin GA, USA
- Contact:
Input from CMP
Got this from Gary Anderson in reference to a couple of questions I read on this Forum. While this isn't an "Official CMP" Ruling, it goes to the thought process of what CMP is looking for.
In a message dated 12/24/2009 6:12:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, XXX@odcmp writes:
Roy:
AirForce Air Guns has started delivering Edge air rifles. Company President John McCaslin tells me production is still limited, but that it is speeding up as they work bugs out of the assembly process. We should start seeing some of these rifles showing up at 3PAR matches. It's in the Rulebook as a legal Sporter so it can be used.
The Edge rear sight is presently not legal for use on other sporters, although that could well change in 2010. The National 3PAR Council considered this question 1 1/2 years ago and decided that they wanted the entire rifle on the market and in use before deciding the sight transfer issue. It would take a full Council decision to approve that, however, it is not something I or CMP can do on our own.
Gary
Gary Anderson
:
Gary,
I'm hearing that AirForce has finally delivered some of their Edge Sporter Air Rifles. I'm also hearing that the Rear Sight isn't approved for use on any other Sporter. Thanks,
Roy
In a message dated 12/24/2009 6:12:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, XXX@odcmp writes:
Roy:
AirForce Air Guns has started delivering Edge air rifles. Company President John McCaslin tells me production is still limited, but that it is speeding up as they work bugs out of the assembly process. We should start seeing some of these rifles showing up at 3PAR matches. It's in the Rulebook as a legal Sporter so it can be used.
The Edge rear sight is presently not legal for use on other sporters, although that could well change in 2010. The National 3PAR Council considered this question 1 1/2 years ago and decided that they wanted the entire rifle on the market and in use before deciding the sight transfer issue. It would take a full Council decision to approve that, however, it is not something I or CMP can do on our own.
Gary
Gary Anderson
:
Gary,
I'm hearing that AirForce has finally delivered some of their Edge Sporter Air Rifles. I'm also hearing that the Rear Sight isn't approved for use on any other Sporter. Thanks,
Roy
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Correction
Sight Height
Correction:
Roy:
I need to correct one item in the information I gave you about the AFAG Edge. I spoke with John McCaslin this afternoon when we discussed the sight height issues. It is correct that earlier prototypes of the Edge had a 72mm sight height, which is to high to meet the precision air rifle sight height limit. John subsequently lowered the sight height to make sure it comes within the 60mm maximum. This means that there should be no problems with a shooter using the Edge as a member of a precision air rifle team.
John reported that he has now shipped about 100 rifles and that he has another 200 in the works that should be shipped in the next couple of weeks.
Here's hoping you and your family are having a great Holiday Season.
Gary Anderson
Roy:
I need to correct one item in the information I gave you about the AFAG Edge. I spoke with John McCaslin this afternoon when we discussed the sight height issues. It is correct that earlier prototypes of the Edge had a 72mm sight height, which is to high to meet the precision air rifle sight height limit. John subsequently lowered the sight height to make sure it comes within the 60mm maximum. This means that there should be no problems with a shooter using the Edge as a member of a precision air rifle team.
John reported that he has now shipped about 100 rifles and that he has another 200 in the works that should be shipped in the next couple of weeks.
Here's hoping you and your family are having a great Holiday Season.
Gary Anderson
Nice photos. I like the incremental markings. I have a Crosman Challenger 2009 and although the butt plate and cheek piece are adjustable, there are no markings on them to accurately record what settings you use. Same with the accessory rail. Does the Edge have markings for the length of pull and cheek piece as well?
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Guest
air force edge
Anyone shoot groups with the edge yet? We did at nationals but they were 8ring and not impressive. The barrel is clamped at the front and not free floating. Would like to know if they fixed this.
RevvDon wrote:Nice photos. I like the incremental markings. I have a Crosman Challenger 2009 and although the butt plate and cheek piece are adjustable, there are no markings on them to accurately record what settings you use. Same with the accessory rail. Does the Edge have markings for the length of pull and cheek piece as well?
Will someone please post a picture of some 5 shot bench groups shot with this gun? I used to just buy one of every new gun that came out to test them myself, just to see which one was best, not to see if they are really bad or not. I have changed my procedure after buying a Crossman 2000 when they first came out and finding out that I had a gun that would not shoot any better than 8-ring. Now I will let other people accumulate a vault of somewhat useless guns, doing my testing for me :-))
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Guest
edge rifle
Got one. Don't have a bench aturdy enuff to be that precise. Shot off bench rest with 8ring or worse groups. Shot single ho
e groups with 2009, 887 with various pellets so it aint me. Suggest pilks or pyramid shoot one and verify for us all... once n for all. AFAG should shoot a group and include with each gun for the price imho-
e groups with 2009, 887 with various pellets so it aint me. Suggest pilks or pyramid shoot one and verify for us all... once n for all. AFAG should shoot a group and include with each gun for the price imho-
PaulB wrote:Will someone please post a picture of some 5 shot bench groups shot with this gun? I used to just buy one of every new gun that came out to test them myself, just to see which one was best, not to see if they are really bad or not. I have changed my procedure after buying a Crossman 2000 when they first came out and finding out that I had a gun that would not shoot any better than 8-ring. Now I will let other people accumulate a vault of somewhat useless guns, doing my testing for me :-))
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
One of our guys who put 5 shots in one hole (Benched) with his 2009 887, can't get any better than a dime sized group with his new Edge. I was told that the 887 had a 5 shot hole that looked like a single hole, no ragged edge at all. These were shot on the same day (last week) I believe. Sounds like they have issues with the new gun.
I have a feeling that the owner's Dad will be in contact with the manufacturer.
Mike
Wichita KS
One of our guys who put 5 shots in one hole (Benched) with his 2009 887, can't get any better than a dime sized group with his new Edge. I was told that the 887 had a 5 shot hole that looked like a single hole, no ragged edge at all. These were shot on the same day (last week) I believe. Sounds like they have issues with the new gun.
I have a feeling that the owner's Dad will be in contact with the manufacturer.
Mike
Wichita KS
-
TCWriter
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:20 pm
- Location: Mountains of northern California
- Contact:
I have the Challenger 2009, and while testing pellets, shot it from a Caldwell Deadshot bag and rear bean bag (not exactly benchrest).
Everything looked as good as you'd expect from a 10 meter gun, and the better four-shot groups looked like one slightly enlarged pellet hole (it liked the 7 grain R10 pellets best, though the heavy pellets produced only slightly enlongated holes).
I'd suggest the new Challenger's plenty accurate - far better than the "7-ring" original (CO2) Challenger.
Everything looked as good as you'd expect from a 10 meter gun, and the better four-shot groups looked like one slightly enlarged pellet hole (it liked the 7 grain R10 pellets best, though the heavy pellets produced only slightly enlongated holes).
I'd suggest the new Challenger's plenty accurate - far better than the "7-ring" original (CO2) Challenger.
Re: Crosman Challenger PCP vs. Air Force Edge
Hello FKW, I would dismiss any accuracy testing of these two ARs that is notfkw wrote:Now both air rifles are on the market, can someone give me a review of those rifles? They are similarly priced, how do they compare?
I intend to buy one for my teenager for backyard training.
Which is more "beautiful", more reliable, more accurate, and less noisy (for my backyard)?
Thanks.
done from a vised platform. Tom Gaylord did test the Edge's accuracy at 10 meters
from a vised position. I'll let everyone here judge for themselves, based
on what they see. Tom G. did not shoot all available wadcutters in all
head sizes, but his method seems sound. Here's the link to that test:
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2010/01/ ... art-6.html
Enjoy.....
Tony G
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi againmikeschroeder wrote:Hi
One of our guys who put 5 shots in one hole (Benched) with his 2009 887, can't get any better than a dime sized group with his new Edge. I was told that the 887 had a 5 shot hole that looked like a single hole, no ragged edge at all. These were shot on the same day (last week) I believe. Sounds like they have issues with the new gun.
I have a feeling that the owner's Dad will be in contact with the manufacturer.
Mike
Wichita KS
I heard yesterday at our air rifle match, that the Edges shoot better with a 7 gram pellet as opposed to a 4 or 5 grain pellet. Did anybody read that on the directions? The local boy who owns one is out of the state right now, but that might be the problem.
Thanks
Mike
Wichita KS
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Tony D
CH2009 vs Edge vs 887
I own a CH2009 and 887. Both will shoot a single hole 5 shot group with RWS R-10 heavies (8.2 gr) from a sand bag rest. A single hole that looks like a single shot. It is repeatable.
I saw the Edge shot at the nationals at Camp Perry from a vise and it was no better than a 8-ring group no matter what pellet was used. I recently shot a production gun numbered under 50 from the same rest setup and it could do no better than a 9 ring group with RWS R-10 light pistol pellets. Other pellets had 8 ring or larger groups.
The rear sight on the Edge is a good one, however.
I saw the Edge shot at the nationals at Camp Perry from a vise and it was no better than a 8-ring group no matter what pellet was used. I recently shot a production gun numbered under 50 from the same rest setup and it could do no better than a 9 ring group with RWS R-10 light pistol pellets. Other pellets had 8 ring or larger groups.
The rear sight on the Edge is a good one, however.
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Tony D
Edge vs CH2009 vs 887
Some other thoughts on sporter rifles.
The Avanti 887 is, surprisingly, very accurate. I say surprisingly because it is very inexpensively made and the trigger is not very good. It is also very pellet tolerant. With inexpensive RWS Basics, 95+ scores are possible from a bench. With Meisterkugeln and R-10's, the rifle is as good as you can shoot it. The rifle is front heavy, though, and smaller shooters might have problems holding it in standing. Plus, the sight line is low to the barrel which causes many shooters to cant the rifle to bring it to their eye. Riser blocks aren't allowed, so this becomes a feature of the rifle.
The CH2009 is lighter and better balanced. It has a much better trigger than the Avanti and has built in adjustability. You can dial it down to your preference and still meet the rules. It is not as good as an Anschutz or FWB trigger, but then again, the sporter rules don't allow a 3 ounce trigger anyway. The stock also has a lot of adjustability, but sporter rules don't allow you to use the adjustable but plate anyway. The barrel is longer than the 887 and gives you a slightly longer sight radius. The barrel is also full floating like most modern target rifles. The CH2009 is also accurate and tolerant of ammo. It will shoot well with just about any premium target pellet. On CO2, I get over 120 shots, but this may be a function of the mild weather that I enjoy where I live. The temperature never gets below 65F where I live, so CO2 works very consistently. On CA, the velocity is definitely faster, but you can dial down the velocity if you wanted to. Leaving it at the same setting as on CO2, I got just over 100 shots before my shots started dropping noticeably. In competition, I would either use CO2 or limit CA shooting to 90 shots.
The Edge is very light and feels it. It also has a very nice trigger. It fits smaller shooters better than either of the other two rifles. The sights are on risers already, so it promotes better head position in the standing position. And the sights are really nice. The front globe has plexi inserts and the rear sight is built strong and accurate. It looks like it would take a lot of abuse on a club gun and survive. The sight is repeatable and predictable. Nuff said.
Unfortunately, I cannot get it to shoot well after shooting a bevy of five shot groups with different ammo from a rest. The gun will just not group well. I suspect is has something to do with the short barrel (14"?) that is mounted at the FRONT and MIDpoint while the BACK half of the barrel is free floating. This is unconventional to say the least.
The regulator on the rifle is very good. On one fill, we were able to get over 100 shots. We didn't run it to empty, but you could tell that the velocity was dropping off..
I was shooting the rifle for a friend of a friend who wanted to see what it could do. He later mounted the rifle in a vise and also couldn't do better than an 8 ring group. BB Pelletier on Pyramid said that he got his best group with H&N lights, but I didn't have any of them available so I can't verify his results. All I know is that it just won't group as well as the other two rifles with several brands of premium ammo and is, at the least, not ammo type tolerant.
If they ever fix the accuracy problem, I think the Edge would be a winner. It just isn't one right now. Maybe someone will get one that does shoot well and can report under what conditions he got it to do so.
The Avanti is already a proven winner in sporter competition. IMO, I believe that the CH2009 will either overtake the 887 or force Daisy to make improvements to it. The Edge is nice to look at, but in its current state, is not competitive.
Anyway, good luck in your decision.
The Avanti 887 is, surprisingly, very accurate. I say surprisingly because it is very inexpensively made and the trigger is not very good. It is also very pellet tolerant. With inexpensive RWS Basics, 95+ scores are possible from a bench. With Meisterkugeln and R-10's, the rifle is as good as you can shoot it. The rifle is front heavy, though, and smaller shooters might have problems holding it in standing. Plus, the sight line is low to the barrel which causes many shooters to cant the rifle to bring it to their eye. Riser blocks aren't allowed, so this becomes a feature of the rifle.
The CH2009 is lighter and better balanced. It has a much better trigger than the Avanti and has built in adjustability. You can dial it down to your preference and still meet the rules. It is not as good as an Anschutz or FWB trigger, but then again, the sporter rules don't allow a 3 ounce trigger anyway. The stock also has a lot of adjustability, but sporter rules don't allow you to use the adjustable but plate anyway. The barrel is longer than the 887 and gives you a slightly longer sight radius. The barrel is also full floating like most modern target rifles. The CH2009 is also accurate and tolerant of ammo. It will shoot well with just about any premium target pellet. On CO2, I get over 120 shots, but this may be a function of the mild weather that I enjoy where I live. The temperature never gets below 65F where I live, so CO2 works very consistently. On CA, the velocity is definitely faster, but you can dial down the velocity if you wanted to. Leaving it at the same setting as on CO2, I got just over 100 shots before my shots started dropping noticeably. In competition, I would either use CO2 or limit CA shooting to 90 shots.
The Edge is very light and feels it. It also has a very nice trigger. It fits smaller shooters better than either of the other two rifles. The sights are on risers already, so it promotes better head position in the standing position. And the sights are really nice. The front globe has plexi inserts and the rear sight is built strong and accurate. It looks like it would take a lot of abuse on a club gun and survive. The sight is repeatable and predictable. Nuff said.
Unfortunately, I cannot get it to shoot well after shooting a bevy of five shot groups with different ammo from a rest. The gun will just not group well. I suspect is has something to do with the short barrel (14"?) that is mounted at the FRONT and MIDpoint while the BACK half of the barrel is free floating. This is unconventional to say the least.
The regulator on the rifle is very good. On one fill, we were able to get over 100 shots. We didn't run it to empty, but you could tell that the velocity was dropping off..
I was shooting the rifle for a friend of a friend who wanted to see what it could do. He later mounted the rifle in a vise and also couldn't do better than an 8 ring group. BB Pelletier on Pyramid said that he got his best group with H&N lights, but I didn't have any of them available so I can't verify his results. All I know is that it just won't group as well as the other two rifles with several brands of premium ammo and is, at the least, not ammo type tolerant.
If they ever fix the accuracy problem, I think the Edge would be a winner. It just isn't one right now. Maybe someone will get one that does shoot well and can report under what conditions he got it to do so.
The Avanti is already a proven winner in sporter competition. IMO, I believe that the CH2009 will either overtake the 887 or force Daisy to make improvements to it. The Edge is nice to look at, but in its current state, is not competitive.
Anyway, good luck in your decision.