How much is ideal to use electronic Trainer such Rika in a training plan?
By 2-3 days i'll put my hand on Rika, wondering how much train with it.
By now my Air Pistol training week is like:
- 2 days live fire at the range. (1 training + 1 evening match)
- dry fire/ holding excercises at home, after dinner, 3 days week.
It's a good idea doing after dinner excercise with electronic training device, mainly with blank paper to check trigger and hold?
Or it's better to use electronic trainer only to check time to time if training is in the good way?
Any advice is appreciated,
best regards,
Luca.
Electronic Trainer use in training plan.
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
There are a couple things I suggest:
1) Use the trainer to learn how to "see" what is unfolding in a more detailed manner. By this, I mean to observe your dry fire to such detail that the trainer becomes a replay of what you already saw and know occurred. Once you have achieved this level of "seeing" your dry fire, you should use the trainer for this on frequent occasions to reinforce your ability to see the intricate details of your dry firing. Then, carry that ability into your live firing.
2) I have a trigger training exercise at Trigger Training with the Rika that I recommend to help promote a pure straight back operation.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
1) Use the trainer to learn how to "see" what is unfolding in a more detailed manner. By this, I mean to observe your dry fire to such detail that the trainer becomes a replay of what you already saw and know occurred. Once you have achieved this level of "seeing" your dry fire, you should use the trainer for this on frequent occasions to reinforce your ability to see the intricate details of your dry firing. Then, carry that ability into your live firing.
2) I have a trigger training exercise at Trigger Training with the Rika that I recommend to help promote a pure straight back operation.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
-
Patrick Haynes
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:36 pm
- Contact:
Electronic Trainers and Training
Hi.
The Rika, or the SCATT, can be used to provide near-instantaneous feedback. I say near-instanteous, because you better not be staring at it as the shot is released. (Yes, I've seen athletes almost getting whiplash trying to watch their shot instead of following through).
As Ed mentioned, you use these tools to confirm how you called your shot. If you're right, perfect, carry on. If there is a difference (you called high-right and it shows low-right), stop and think about how it felt and what made you think that way. You're tuning your internal feedback mechanisms. The key is stopping and considering the shot release BEFORE you look at the trainer.
Another method, which is beneficial, is to use the trainer to benchmark your current performance and supply hard performance metrics. You need to know what you are doing before you can improve your performances. This is a repetitive short-term activity. Review and improve. Review again and improve more. Next thing you know, you're at the Olympics. (Honest!)
With regards to performance metrics, the RIKA and SCATT both give you numbers that describe how you did. I just sold my RIKA after a couple years of non-use, so I'll use examples from the SCATT (which I own and have recommended to teams and athletes that I work with).
You start off by gathering these numbers that describe how you are doing. For instance, trace length will describe how steady your hold is. With this number, use it as a benchmark to improve against. A goal may be to reduce your trace length by 15% over a season. Now, this doesn't achieve your goal. You need to decide what activities you should perform to reduce the trace length. It could be developing better stabilisers through core exercises. It could also include shoulder/back exercises that strengthen your scapula. It could even include shooting more often.
Regardless, you perform the remedial activity and then test your performance again, maybe in a month. Look at the numbers for the trainer and ask yourself, did they improve? If they did, excellent! If not, consider if you need more time with the remedial activity or if the activity doesn't move you towards your goal. Regardless, review your performance metrics with your activities in mind, and then adjust accordingly.
Hope that helps.
Patrick
The Rika, or the SCATT, can be used to provide near-instantaneous feedback. I say near-instanteous, because you better not be staring at it as the shot is released. (Yes, I've seen athletes almost getting whiplash trying to watch their shot instead of following through).
As Ed mentioned, you use these tools to confirm how you called your shot. If you're right, perfect, carry on. If there is a difference (you called high-right and it shows low-right), stop and think about how it felt and what made you think that way. You're tuning your internal feedback mechanisms. The key is stopping and considering the shot release BEFORE you look at the trainer.
Another method, which is beneficial, is to use the trainer to benchmark your current performance and supply hard performance metrics. You need to know what you are doing before you can improve your performances. This is a repetitive short-term activity. Review and improve. Review again and improve more. Next thing you know, you're at the Olympics. (Honest!)
With regards to performance metrics, the RIKA and SCATT both give you numbers that describe how you did. I just sold my RIKA after a couple years of non-use, so I'll use examples from the SCATT (which I own and have recommended to teams and athletes that I work with).
You start off by gathering these numbers that describe how you are doing. For instance, trace length will describe how steady your hold is. With this number, use it as a benchmark to improve against. A goal may be to reduce your trace length by 15% over a season. Now, this doesn't achieve your goal. You need to decide what activities you should perform to reduce the trace length. It could be developing better stabilisers through core exercises. It could also include shoulder/back exercises that strengthen your scapula. It could even include shooting more often.
Regardless, you perform the remedial activity and then test your performance again, maybe in a month. Look at the numbers for the trainer and ask yourself, did they improve? If they did, excellent! If not, consider if you need more time with the remedial activity or if the activity doesn't move you towards your goal. Regardless, review your performance metrics with your activities in mind, and then adjust accordingly.
Hope that helps.
Patrick
OK, so I look at the last second and see that in most cases the green and blue trace whip across the target face in random directions regardless of whether I shot a 6 or a 10. Does this tell me about my triggering or the fact that my aim moved rapidly in the last second.
When I say across the face it may start in the low 8 and move through the centre to a high 7 or start left in the 7 and move through the centre to high right in the 6. After a few thousand shots I have not seen any pattern - it just looks random. There are, of course, a % of shots where the last second produced a circular pattern near the centre/where the shot struck.
Not sure if I am asking a question here as I haven't been shooting long enough to know what I should be asking/looking at - I just know that there is a problem...
Cheers
David
When I say across the face it may start in the low 8 and move through the centre to a high 7 or start left in the 7 and move through the centre to high right in the 6. After a few thousand shots I have not seen any pattern - it just looks random. There are, of course, a % of shots where the last second produced a circular pattern near the centre/where the shot struck.
Not sure if I am asking a question here as I haven't been shooting long enough to know what I should be asking/looking at - I just know that there is a problem...
Cheers
David
David,higginsdj wrote:OK, so I look at the last second and see that in most cases the green and blue trace whip across the target face in random directions regardless of whether I shot a 6 or a 10. Does this tell me about my triggering or the fact that my aim moved rapidly in the last second.
<snip>
Cheers
David
Copy up a picture of a typical scatt trace and perhaps the folks can comment. It is very difficult to fault diagnose just looking at a picture but it may be possible to read something from it.
Rob.
-
Steve Swartz as Guest
If the rapid movement occurs in the last 100 ms or so, it's triggering.
If it occurs 100ms < X < 400ms or so, its a "jerk" (triggering plus steering)
If it starts earlier than 400ms in advance, it's probably "steering"
These are all rough, typical values. Your mileage will, of course, vary.
Triggering: poor manipulation of trigger (usually a "straight line" in last 100ms)
Jerk: conscious control of alignment and trigger, resulting in compound errors (usually a zig-zaggy line in last 400ms)
Steering: trying to push/pull shot into ten ring as trigger starts moving (sweeping "arc-like" movement starting more than 400ms prior to release)
If it occurs 100ms < X < 400ms or so, its a "jerk" (triggering plus steering)
If it starts earlier than 400ms in advance, it's probably "steering"
These are all rough, typical values. Your mileage will, of course, vary.
Triggering: poor manipulation of trigger (usually a "straight line" in last 100ms)
Jerk: conscious control of alignment and trigger, resulting in compound errors (usually a zig-zaggy line in last 400ms)
Steering: trying to push/pull shot into ten ring as trigger starts moving (sweeping "arc-like" movement starting more than 400ms prior to release)
Thank you all.
Steering and jerking seem to be my issue (when aiming). When I switched just to the triggering exercise things improved considerably with a high percentage of shots with the 'impact' in or on the edge of the 'zone'.
Some problem traces can be found here:
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace1.JPG
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace2.JPG
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace3.JPG
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace4.JPG
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace5.JPG
Cheers
David
Steering and jerking seem to be my issue (when aiming). When I switched just to the triggering exercise things improved considerably with a high percentage of shots with the 'impact' in or on the edge of the 'zone'.
Some problem traces can be found here:
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace1.JPG
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace2.JPG
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace3.JPG
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace4.JPG
http://www.david-higgins.com/pistol/Trace5.JPG
Cheers
David
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I don't know of any other time based graph in the Rika system.
Taking a look at the sample SCATT speed graph, I can't see how this is that much different from the last traces I posted. In any case, the description provided by SCATT is 'Trace Speed' so it is a plot of how fast the trace is moving at points in time. The RIKA does this visually in the trace itself - ie the distance between the dots. The closer the dots are together the slower the trace movement.
Cheers
David
Taking a look at the sample SCATT speed graph, I can't see how this is that much different from the last traces I posted. In any case, the description provided by SCATT is 'Trace Speed' so it is a plot of how fast the trace is moving at points in time. The RIKA does this visually in the trace itself - ie the distance between the dots. The closer the dots are together the slower the trace movement.
Cheers
David
-
Steve Swartz as Guest
Bottom line on steering and jerking is this . . . if you are trying to "time" the release of the shot; or consciously trying to control the shot in any way, your process will always have this weakness.
Steve
(dry/live fire against a blank target face while maintaining perfect sight alignment/front sight focus before, during and after the shot)
Steve
(dry/live fire against a blank target face while maintaining perfect sight alignment/front sight focus before, during and after the shot)
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
The big difference is that it is much easier to see the point at which the speed increased rapidly on the Scatt graph. Knowing whether the increase was, for example, at .15 second before the release points you at different likely causes than if it was at .4 seconds.higginsdj wrote:Taking a look at the sample SCATT speed graph, I can't see how this is that much different from the last traces I posted. In any case, the description provided by SCATT is 'Trace Speed' so it is a plot of how fast the trace is moving at points in time. The RIKA does this visually in the trace itself - ie the distance between the dots. The closer the dots are together the slower the trace movement.
You can get an indication of that time from the Rika trace but, IMHO, it's more difficult to read and therefore less likely to be used.
I totally agree, this is more interesting than you can imagine. Now we can get more use from our SCATT, please tell us more!Gwhite wrote:I have only imagined ever getting the kind of info you have here, so I'll let the experts weigh in, but I think I see a lot going on. Mostly it convinces me that I really need to get one of these things.
Kent
David,
In looking at your graphs, except for trace1 (more later), I see no real speed up for the shot, only a little bit in a couple. On the Rika, using dynamic tracking, as you are (my preferred trace), the individual dots show the difference in muzzle tracking speed. If you were speeding up through the triggerring, they would be more widely spaced. You can see this in some of the outlying regions, and in the initial settle and late follow through.
IMNSHO, your difficulties lie in your static setup. You need to find a better grip/trigger finger placement. You are trying to learn the correct trigger movement with less than ideal conditions.
I would suggest taking a look at an article I have up called Improving Hold and Trigger Manipulation and interspersing its steps with the Rika exercise I referenced above (Trigger Training with the Rika).
Of additional note, trace1, again, IMNSHO shows a shot fired before settle. I wouldn't even add this one into the studies. Further, there are several shots in the center of your traces. Have you studied those in detail to see how you performed them?
Remember to spend more time on what you are trying to reproduce than on what doesn't work. Use the Rika to learn how to perform wanted traits by studying those aspects, instead of studying what it takes to produce unwanted results.
As always, all comments, even contradictory ones are quite welcome...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
In looking at your graphs, except for trace1 (more later), I see no real speed up for the shot, only a little bit in a couple. On the Rika, using dynamic tracking, as you are (my preferred trace), the individual dots show the difference in muzzle tracking speed. If you were speeding up through the triggerring, they would be more widely spaced. You can see this in some of the outlying regions, and in the initial settle and late follow through.
IMNSHO, your difficulties lie in your static setup. You need to find a better grip/trigger finger placement. You are trying to learn the correct trigger movement with less than ideal conditions.
I would suggest taking a look at an article I have up called Improving Hold and Trigger Manipulation and interspersing its steps with the Rika exercise I referenced above (Trigger Training with the Rika).
Of additional note, trace1, again, IMNSHO shows a shot fired before settle. I wouldn't even add this one into the studies. Further, there are several shots in the center of your traces. Have you studied those in detail to see how you performed them?
Remember to spend more time on what you are trying to reproduce than on what doesn't work. Use the Rika to learn how to perform wanted traits by studying those aspects, instead of studying what it takes to produce unwanted results.
As always, all comments, even contradictory ones are quite welcome...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things
I would have to agree that my grip needs work. I still have the problem of the sight picture rotating to the left the longer I hold - it's like I have no control over it (ie the front sight pin moves slowly to the left in the site picture). I can see it happening and it takes what feels like a herculian effort to 'rotate' it back into position (Right hand shooter with right eye) but then feels like I am fighting something.
In exercises to bring the arm up for natural alignment, my arm always came up to the right. I turn my body to the left and my arm still came up to the right (to the point where I was facing 45 degrees aways from the target and my arm physically couldn't go any further to the right. That was in the beginning - I might give it another go now that I have been shooting for a while and see if something more natural eventuates.
Also, regarding Steves comment on 'conciously' doing things. As a beginner I have no choice but to conciously do things. I have to decide to aim and I have to decide to trigger the pistol. Should I choose to 'ignore' where I am aiming and just concentrate on the sight picture and trigger? Ignore for aiming might be too strong a word - perhaps just as long as it is somewhere on the target face simply for safety reasons but otherwise aim is of lesser importance as a beginner?
Cheers
David
In exercises to bring the arm up for natural alignment, my arm always came up to the right. I turn my body to the left and my arm still came up to the right (to the point where I was facing 45 degrees aways from the target and my arm physically couldn't go any further to the right. That was in the beginning - I might give it another go now that I have been shooting for a while and see if something more natural eventuates.
Also, regarding Steves comment on 'conciously' doing things. As a beginner I have no choice but to conciously do things. I have to decide to aim and I have to decide to trigger the pistol. Should I choose to 'ignore' where I am aiming and just concentrate on the sight picture and trigger? Ignore for aiming might be too strong a word - perhaps just as long as it is somewhere on the target face simply for safety reasons but otherwise aim is of lesser importance as a beginner?
Cheers
David
-
Patrick Haynes
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:36 pm
- Contact:
Actual Traces?
Hi David.
Can you provide the actual traces, preferably from one of your SCATT sessions, with at least 20 shots fired in match mode (not sighters)?
Also, are you right or left handed?
If you can email them to me at haynes@targetshooting.ca, I'll send you some thoughts.
Take care.
Patrick
Can you provide the actual traces, preferably from one of your SCATT sessions, with at least 20 shots fired in match mode (not sighters)?
Also, are you right or left handed?
If you can email them to me at haynes@targetshooting.ca, I'll send you some thoughts.
Take care.
Patrick