Cheating people!

[Rover]

When you play with the big boys you have your trigger weight checked during pre-match inspection.

At most matches that won't happen, so you think you can slide by.

How many of you cannot pass such a test?

You can find out using two tins of pellets taped to a bent piece of coathanger. If you can lift them with your trigger, you're a really, really good person and will be rewarded with free beer forever.

If not, you will pick up the bar tab for the first guy.

Just remember that that most virtuous of shooters, John Zurek, passed inspection, was randomly pulled off the line at the World Cup and failed a retest (go figure!).

I did NOT make him buy me beer.

[Spencer]

...passed inspection, was randomly pulled off the line at the World Cup and failed a retest (go figure!)...

Are you sure the shooter was 'pulled off the line' for a trigger check?

To take a shooter from the line would be unusual (to say the least): or was it a random check at the completion of the relay?
It makes a big difference.

Spencer

[dhurt]

I think the retest is after the match? I am sure John's trigger was real close to the 500 grams, sometimes it makes weight, sometimes it may not. Some of the problem with "close weight" is who is doing the actual testing. Two different people may arive at different results? I think you get two (or is it three) lifts, and you are out. I have my triggers set a little high to account for variables, but sometimes weird things happen. There may be a few cheats out there, John isn't one of them. His trigger simply didn't pass the testing officials attempts. Rules are Rules, but i wonder what score difference would be between 480 grams and 520 grams? I have never tried it! I am sure John was disappointed with the result, but I am sure he won't dwell on it. I wish him future success!!!

[Rover]

I'm not sure when they retested John's trigger, but he is a good friend and I'm certain he did no wrong. After all, his trigger had already been tested.

BUT, my point is, how many too light triggers are being used right now because they're not being checked? And I supplied a quick and dirty test.

[david alaways]

2 out of my last 4 tests before matches failed, I have never ajusted my trigger except to pass those 2 test that I failed. Am I a cheater? David.

[Tycho]

Go and re-read the Nestruev interview - if my memory's not failing, he said something interesting about this...

[David M]

A simple set up when I set a trigger weight is a 20 cent, 50 cent, 70 cent test.
Air pistol has to lift 500g weight plus a 20 cent coin (Aus 20 cent is 12 gram).
Standard/Sport/Centre fire lifts 1000g plus a 50 cent coin (Aus 50 cent is 16 gram).
Service/NRA lift the trigger weight plus 70 cents.
Setting a trigger up less than this will not allow for any changes (temperature etc) and can fail the test.
Also if a trigger is set too fine on the sear it can also cause a variable trigger weight.
The cheats are those that deliberately alter the trigger lighter after the gun check test.

[Misny]

I've noticed that most cheaters are found at the lower levels of competition, although I'm sure that there is some of that going on a the very top levels, due to national (coach) pressure. The lower level shooters know that they can get away with cheating and some do regularly. Some consider it gamesmanship and part of the sport, but I do not. I believe that the vast majority of top shooters have good character, as far as, the shooting sports go (don't get me going on Michael Phelps and Michael Vick). I think that they hold the rules of their sport almost in reverence. They also don't want the shame of being labeled a cheat.

Bill Blankenship told me that he always had his triggers set to 1/4 lb. above the legal minimum. He then adjusted his training to accept the weight. He also had one less thing to worry about. I've subscribed to his philosophy. I've been checked many times and always passed. I've seen national team members fail and with all the support they get, including gunsmithing, could find no reason for it. There is always the rare instance where one can fail a trigger weighing session, no matter how careful one is to abide by the rules. I have no reason to think that anything else but this happened in John Zurek's case.

[Isabel1130]

"Bill Blankenship told me that he always had his triggers set to 1/4 lb. above the legal minimum. He then adjusted his training to accept the weight. He also had one less thing to worry about. I've subscribed to his philosophy. I've been checked many times and always passed. I've seen national team members fail and with all the support they get, including gunsmithing, could find no reason for it. There is always the rare instance where one can fail a trigger weighing session, no matter how careful one is to abide by the rules. I have no reason to think that anything else but this happened in John Zurek's case."

I talked to John about the incident in Milan when I saw him at Canton. I think the judges randomly check the weight after the firing of three people on the line. John says that they "always" check an American. I don't know what the standard proceedure is for weighing trigger before and after the match. If I remember correctly John implied that his passed twice. However I am with Misny. I have the trigger on my Air Pistol set at about 550g to make sure that it does not become an issue.

[David Levene]

I think the judges randomly check the weight after the firing of three people on the line.

At least 1 person from each group of 8 firing points in air pistol.

John says that they "always" check an American.

Even if this was true it is absolutely no excuse. If your trigger is below the required weight then you deserve to be disqualified.

[Bob-Riegl]

I still remember the last year I ran the International NRA sectional and we had a new NRA Referee in attendance. I could have made a fortune adjusting the triggers on Air Pistols that were weighed before shooting. This same Referee also showed for the Bullseye rimfire sectionals, he caught up with the guys who had been shooting the .22 shorts in Rapid Fire pistols for the Bullseye events for years and years. In the two days he sent 9 guys home cussin' and muttering. That year during the Indoor league matches these guys were tossed out of one rimfire match after the other---the word had finally gotten out. IMHO good riddance to bad rubbish---cheaters all. Wins are not Pyrrhic victories when you know you have cheated."Doc"

[Isabel1130]

I think the judges randomly check the weight after the firing of three people on the line.

At least 1 person from each group of 8 firing points in air pistol.

John says that they "always" check an American.

Even if this was true it is absolutely no excuse. If your trigger is below the required weight then you deserve to be disqualified.

I don't disagree. You "should" have your pistol adjusted so that it is legal. However if the refs are only selectively enforcing the rule and "not" checking certain favored nationalities or certain favored shooters that brings up an entirely different issue which is generally referred to as "a double standard" I think "everyone's" pistol on the line should be checked immediately after firing the match or possibly randomly during the match. No adjustments should be allowed on the line either without a ref standing by to check the trigger after. It is the only way to be totally fair.

[Rover]

This thread is not about Zurek.

It is a reminder to check your trigger.

Stuff happens, though.

I was at a big match and my pistol failed to make weight (3 times). I finally brought over the armorer who had adjusted my gun and he stood over the refs shoulder. This time it passed.

[RobStubbs]

I talked to John about the incident in Milan when I saw him at Canton. I think the judges randomly check the weight after the firing of three people on the line. John says that they "always" check an American. I don't know what the standard proceedure is for weighing trigger before and after the match. If I remember correctly John implied that his passed twice. However I am with Misny. I have the trigger on my Air Pistol set at about 550g to make sure that it does not become an issue.

I don't believe that. The rules say they are 'randon' trigger weight tests and if they really were always checked, then it's up to the coaches / managers to complain.

Nevertheless, it's foolhardy to have your trigger set so low that it may fail. Whay not set it at 550g for example and just get used to it (especially if your gun is one that can vary in different temperatures).

Edit - rules actually say 'shooters should be selected by the drawing of numbered lots from each batch of 8 shooters' - but that still implies one at random from the 8.

Rob.