25 yd vs 50 yd results

rogersdan · Post by **rogersdan** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:59 pm

I'm new to bullseye shooting. I'm shooting a HS Citation with an ultradot scope. Right now my goal is to keep my shots within the 8 ring. When I shoot at 25 yds I can keep about 80% of my shots within the 8 ring, but when I shoot at 50 yds. the percentage drops to 60%.

I'm shooting regulation targets so I expected that the percentage of shots within the 8 ring should be about the same regardless of the distance, but not the case.

Any comments, observations or suggestions?

Thanks, Dan[/i]

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:45 pm

The eight ring is the same size on the 25 yard and 50 yard targets.

You're trying to hit the same size area from twice as far away.

Tougher to do.

rogersdan · Post by **rogersdan** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:30 am

Rover,

I understand that the 50 yd slow fire and 25 yd timed and rapid fire have the same 8ring dimension, but I'm using a 25 yd slow fire target that has a considerably smaller 8 ring than the 50 yd slow fire target.

Thanks, DR

little_doodie · Post by **little_doodie** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:47 am

Make sure your ammo is not failing you.
some ammo will shoot fine at 50' and 25 yards but opens up at 50 yards.
I would verify the ammo is good to go at 50 yards.
At least you will know it's not equipment problems.
The long line is more difficult because small things that do not effect short distances have a greater effect at 50 yards.

champ2010 · Post by **champ2010** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:47 am

Actually, the 25 yards reduced slow fire target is harder than the 50 yards regular target for a 22 caliber. That's because its size was determined based on the 50 yard target and an intermediate caliber bullet. Since 22 caliber holes are smaller, the effective size of the 25 yard target (rings plus bullet diameter) is proportionally smaller than at 50 yards (i.e., less than half the size). With 45 bullets its bigger.

Bottom line, either your pistol or ammo is failing you, as others suggested, or, much more likely, it's all in your head! Shooting at 50 yards can be intimidating, especially if you are new, but once you understand and convince yourself that it's actually easier with a 22, your scores will improve and will be a bit higher than those at 25 yards.

Another factor that can be distracting is that the dot seems to move more at 50 yards than at 25. But again, it's all in your head, your wobble is the same no matter at what distance you are shooting, and the larger rings will take care of the longer distance. Just concentrate on pulling the trigger smoothly and don't stop once you start.

Hope this helps.

rogersdan · Post by **rogersdan** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:16 am

Thanks for the responses.

I'm using CCI Standard velocity ammo so I'm fairly confident that the ammo isn't the problem. When I first purchased the gun, I checked a few brands and the CCI performed almost as well as the very expensive ammo.

I suspect that the extra wobble that I "perceive" is adversely affecting my trigger pull. I'll work extra hard on that and see if it makes a difference.

DR

EdStevens · Post by **EdStevens** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:09 pm

Well, I will make the comment that if you are allowing the muzzle of the gun to move even slightly it will produce a larger error over distance. If the muzzle shifts out of parallel to the target you create an angle of deflection. The further out the target, the more the path of the bullet will deviate, and the greater the error. A deviation of a fraction of a degree can cause substantially more error at 50 yards than at 25 yards.

Philadelphia · Post by **Philadelphia** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:24 am

EdStevens wrote:Well, I will make the comment that if you are allowing the muzzle of the gun to move even slightly it will produce a larger error over distance. If the muzzle shifts out of parallel to the target you create an angle of deflection. The further out the target, the more the path of the bullet will deviate, and the greater the error. A deviation of a fraction of a degree can cause substantially more error at 50 yards than at 25 yards.

Ed, what you say is absolutely true but there is a linear and directly proportional relationship between the angular error, distance to target and group size. In other words, from the standpoint of the geometry of what we're doing, a 1" group at 25 yds. translates to a 2" group at 50 yds., to a 4" group at 100 yds., etc., all other factors being equal. 4 MOA is 4 MOA, regardless of target distance.

The other factors are where the mischief comes in. Effect of wind. Dynamic instability of the bullet (wobble for example that increases as the bullet travels arising from a CG of the bullet that's not in the physical center of the bullet in relation to its direction of travel). Rotating speed as the bullet travels over the distance. (over or under stabilized), a supersonic bullet that goes subsonic before reaching the target, resonance of the barrel and its relationship to the difference in velocity of the bullets squirting out of it, etc.

If the shots at the long line are off call on a calm day, I'd start looking for better ammo. Or put the gun in a vice on a calm day and see what it and the chosen ammo can really do.

EdStevens · Post by **EdStevens** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:34 am

You're very right, I expressed myself incorrectly when I said "a deviation of a fraction of a degree." I should have said "a deviation of a fraction of an inch." That communicates what I'm trying to say much more accurately I think.

Assume a six inch sight radius, and the front sight moves out of alignment by 1/32 of an inch as the gun fires. The deviation at six inches is therefore .03125 inch, which works out to a MOA of almost 18. If my math is right, at 25 yards the bullet will have deviated from intended point of aim by 4.6875 inches, and at 50 yards by 9.375 inches. That's extreme, but I think it shows that maintaining a good sight alignment is potentially more important than say, wobble zone, over distance. That seems to be my experience, at any rate. The first time I tried shooting at 50 yards, I thought I was shooting blanks half the time! And it was because my front sight was moving out of alignment. :-)

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:44 pm

rogersdan wrote:I'm new to bullseye shooting. I'm shooting a HS Citation with an ultradot scope. Right now my goal is to keep my shots within the 8 ring. When I shoot at 25 yds I can keep about 80% of my shots within the 8 ring, but when I shoot at 50 yds. the percentage drops to 60%.

I'm shooting regulation targets so I expected that the percentage of shots within the 8 ring should be about the same regardless of the distance, but not the case.

Any comments, observations or suggestions?

Thanks, Dan[/i]

You "think" it's farther and harder at 50 yards. Therefore you must "try" harder to hold the 8 ring. Your mental control gets messed up. Don't try so hard.

EdStevens · Post by **EdStevens** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:27 am

You "think" it's farther and harder at 50 yards. Therefore you must "try" harder to hold the 8 ring.

What he said. The scaling of the targets does indeed mean that there is no "mechanical" difference in the distances, but there can be a "mental" difference that affects accuracy -- in my case, by increased movement of the front sight (obviously, I shoot irons).

rogersdan · Post by **rogersdan** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:16 pm

I appreciate all the responses, although I'm not convinced that it is just in my head.

It seems to me that at a fundamental level I'm placing a red dot in the center of a black circle and squeezing the trigger. The black at 50 yds appears relatively the same as black at 25 yds, so the same process that produces 80% within the 8 ring at 25 yds should produce 80% at 50 yds.

I'll double check my pistol with a scope and rest and keep practicing.

Thanks, Dan

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:38 pm

You ought to be performance goal oriented more than results oriented. Another point of view is just how bad are the 20% or 40% shots in comparison to each other. (Yeah I know don't be negative. Yada yada) If there is a different trend in the error shots, what is it.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:56 pm

jackh -

I'm not sensetive to criticism as long as it moves me forward; but I don't know what you mean by performance orientated goal vs. results orientated.

I haven't spent enough time trying to analyze the shots within the 8 ring or those outside of it, but there is no obvious pattern.

DR

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:19 pm

I am suggesting that everything you should be concerned about happens at the gun in hand. Do you successfully call the 80% and 60% shots in the 8 ring from your sight picture? Do you call the shots outside the 8 ring? If so either way, can you determine any good or bad technique points? Do you understand technique enough to know when to put the gun down and resume from the beginning of your shot plan? Performance is sort of the same as Swartz's "behaviors".

rogersdan · Post by **rogersdan** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:01 am

jackh

I see what you mean. I haven't been calling my shots.

Thanks, DR

Steve Swartz as Guest · Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:17 pm

Not to "pile on" here but it should seem obvious at this point that YOU are doing something different at 25 yards vs 50 yards . . .

Steve

[as a general rule, the shooters behaviors are responsible for 90+% of any errors that show up downrange; higher for a low performing shooter; somewhat lower for a high performing shooter. Bottom line: as long as you are shooting reasonably good equipment (match grade), everything you see happening on paper is a direct result of something you are doing. As a side note, isn't it somewhat ironic that the lower performing shooters are generally the ones who obsess most about loads and equipment? And they are the ones for whom equipment errors are relatively trivial! I know, I just pissed everyone off again . . . ]

Philadelphia · Post by **Philadelphia** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:28 am

Steve Swartz as Guest wrote:Bottom line: as long as you are shooting reasonably good equipment (match grade) . . .,

I wouldn't look at the issue so glibly. While 50 yds. isn't exactly a mile ;) it is far enough for equipment factors to make a material difference in results. I think a step in the process that helps is to prove to a shooter that the equipment is up to the task. Almost always it is -- but not always.

I remember a really bad day some time ago where I just could not call my shots or get a group I could make sense of. It was very frustrating and I didn't really know what to do (and it was especially embarrasing as my father in law was with me and I was trying to show him I was almost as good a shooter as he is). To make a long story short -- I discovered the front sight was loose. Once resolved, the day improved a good bit. :)

Moral of the story -- sure trust the equipment but also test it. It is just a machine. ;)

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