Word on the street is that the rules have been changed to favor the high velocity spring guns this year. I feel that this is a huge mistake. With the rules written as they were last year more folks could compete with less equipment. This match should not be an equipment race. The way the rules were written last year a competitor could come and use one rifle for all events. If the folks with the spring guns want to use them we should enforce the rules that allow the disqualification of any rifle that causes target damage. We tried last year in the NRA Silhouette committee to get the designation of the spring guns changed to field guns and have the target category divided into true sporter as most of the air shooting world understands the designation and precision but the move was sabotaged by submitting a proposal that the air rep knew would never pass. I would love to hear the opinions of the coaches that had air silhouette shooters on the line in NB last year. There are folks that think we should reduce the distances for the targets. I would love to hear your feelings on this as well. If enough folks feel that the rules should be left as written last year there may still be time to make that happen.
Owen
Change in rules for 4H Air Rifle Silhouettte
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
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Owen
The rules
The rules are being interpreted by folks in the 4H not the NRA. Last year only allowing true sporter rifles (NRA Target Rifles) was done by the host state in order to allow more folks to be able to compete on a more equitable basis. The fear is that this year folks at the 4H National level are going back to pitting spring guns (NRA Sporter Category) against true sporter rifles (NRA Target Category). The term sporter is what confuses everyone. We tried to get the name NRA Category Sporter changed to Field Rifle last year so that folks would not be confused with no luck.
If you take an unbiased look at the Air Rifle silhouette competition at 4-H Nationals over the last 3 years, you will see it is anything but equitable. The early morning relay ("randomly selected") has had a huge advantage. Later relays when the wind picks up are not suitable for air rifle competition at the regulation distances. By wind I mean strong enough to blow shelters over. If it was an equitable event, it would be shot indoors or on one large relay outdoors.
I was told the reason that Nebraska changed/modified the gun type was so that the kids could come in and shoot with only one gun ... all three events.
My view, the Smallbore Rifle event is not that way .... to be competitive you need 2-3 guns ... in shotgun, the top shooters are probably doing it with 2, maybe three.
It's all hard questions and solutions .... then put in the mix that some kids share guns or equipment and must be squadded in separate relays.
The state committees that put this hodgepodge together do the best they can, and should be commended, no matter what.
My view on all this .... no matter the event, go by the NGB rules period and let the chips fall where they may. The only match that is a "sanctioned" match that I know of is the 3-P air rifle and is an EIC points match. That is shot indoors and is fair for all.
[SoapboxON]
All I'd ask to change is that they hold a 3-P precision event for those that desire to fire it ... say shooters that are not allowed compete in air ... bring them in the following year(s) and do a cup match for them. 4-H is the only council member holding a nationals that abandons the precision shooters. This is the opposite of what the intent of the council was when it was formed .... to move the kids along gradually and gain their interest in the International styles of Air & Smallbore rifle
[SoapboxOFF]
I was told the reason that Nebraska changed/modified the gun type was so that the kids could come in and shoot with only one gun ... all three events.
My view, the Smallbore Rifle event is not that way .... to be competitive you need 2-3 guns ... in shotgun, the top shooters are probably doing it with 2, maybe three.
It's all hard questions and solutions .... then put in the mix that some kids share guns or equipment and must be squadded in separate relays.
The state committees that put this hodgepodge together do the best they can, and should be commended, no matter what.
My view on all this .... no matter the event, go by the NGB rules period and let the chips fall where they may. The only match that is a "sanctioned" match that I know of is the 3-P air rifle and is an EIC points match. That is shot indoors and is fair for all.
[SoapboxON]
All I'd ask to change is that they hold a 3-P precision event for those that desire to fire it ... say shooters that are not allowed compete in air ... bring them in the following year(s) and do a cup match for them. 4-H is the only council member holding a nationals that abandons the precision shooters. This is the opposite of what the intent of the council was when it was formed .... to move the kids along gradually and gain their interest in the International styles of Air & Smallbore rifle
[SoapboxOFF]
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SD
The 4H national match as it stands does not meet the 4H ideal. It has become an equipment race. Many want it to duplicate other organizations matches for reasons I don't understand.
4H shooting was to be about teaching kids to shoot safely and compete at a basic level. There are other clubs out there if you want to go farther. It is a wonderful thing to see any kid regardless of family income or circumstances learn with their peers how to handle and shoot a gun.
4H shooting at the national level has been hijacked to the point most 4H'rs can't afford to compete. Where are the funds going to come from to afford the extra equipment?
Where are the kids going to practice? It is somewhat easy to find a place to practice 3P but not Silhouette?
Why can't we just show up and shoot a 3P match? Or just shoot trap? That's what we do at our state match.
I proposed to our state action team to hold just that. It was then proposed to make it a national 4H invitational held at the same time as the "official" 4H national match. We got 4 out of 9 votes. But if the national match continues on it's current course it will eventually pass. Because all members were disappointed in the direction nationals is going. On a related subject the action team did vote not to spend any funds to support sending kids to the national match. Not penalize the kids but in prioritizing expenditures the national match was way down the list. Wonder why?
I know a lot of work by volunteers goes in to the national match but it needs to get back to the basics of 4H not International shooting.
JMO
4H shooting was to be about teaching kids to shoot safely and compete at a basic level. There are other clubs out there if you want to go farther. It is a wonderful thing to see any kid regardless of family income or circumstances learn with their peers how to handle and shoot a gun.
4H shooting at the national level has been hijacked to the point most 4H'rs can't afford to compete. Where are the funds going to come from to afford the extra equipment?
Where are the kids going to practice? It is somewhat easy to find a place to practice 3P but not Silhouette?
Why can't we just show up and shoot a 3P match? Or just shoot trap? That's what we do at our state match.
I proposed to our state action team to hold just that. It was then proposed to make it a national 4H invitational held at the same time as the "official" 4H national match. We got 4 out of 9 votes. But if the national match continues on it's current course it will eventually pass. Because all members were disappointed in the direction nationals is going. On a related subject the action team did vote not to spend any funds to support sending kids to the national match. Not penalize the kids but in prioritizing expenditures the national match was way down the list. Wonder why?
I know a lot of work by volunteers goes in to the national match but it needs to get back to the basics of 4H not International shooting.
JMO
SD ..... I see your point, believe me I do, but .....
A competition is just that .... a competition .... and since we are running by NGB rules (Air & Smallbore Rifle specifically), equipment is indeed part of the game .... If you think it is ALL of it, I disagree ..... hard work and practice are at least 90%.
(I have a (4-H) shooter that took a bronze in the JOSC last week with an inexpensive club rifle .... it ain't the equipment ... it's the work she put into her training)
If you look at the other areas of 4-H ... livestock (especially steers & pigs), rodeo, the initial investments are at least as high as shooting sports and are recurring year after year .... competition in those areas, I'll propose, is at a much higher & emotional level, and is taken for granted and accepted. If you showed up to one of those events with only one or two weekends of practice, I'll opine it could be very hazardous.
While I'll admit, I've only been to one 4-H SS Nationals, from what I've seen, a majority of the kids are wholly unpreprepared for the competition in terms of 1) the knowledge of the rules (it is THEIR responsibility ... not daddy's, mommy's or the coach's) ; and 2) level of competency as determined by the amount of hours they put in via practice & training.
I do not subscribe to the practice of dumbing down of any competition .... whether it be for grades or medals or life in general. (One reason I'm disgusted with the "Track Meet" type of scoring now used .... it rewards mediocrity) My opinion .... let the kids that have worked hard shine.
The (good) reason for using NGB rules where possible is that fewer "local interpretations" are possible unless specifically written out in the programs (synopsis). I don't agree with some of them, but at least all who study them (i.e. #1 in above paragraph) know what to expect when they show up at the match.
Kids that want to learn gun safety and compete at a basic level can do so in a few weekends. However, we in the USA have many examples of 4-H shooters who wanted to aspire to more and have gone onto higher levels of competition and success, and we are proud of them.
I'll take a kid as far as I am capable and then happily pass them off to those that can take them farther ..... if they so desire. I know that there are many activities that compete for the attention of youth. I encourage my project members to be the best they can be at what they want to do and explain to them that doing 20 projects/sports is probably not the way to achieve that.
My "kids" know that they can come talk to me and tell me they really want to concentrate on another project, and I'll not be mad at them ... all I ask is that they work as hard in that project as they have in shooting, and they are ALWAYS welcome to come in at anytime and shoot. It's for their lifetime skills that they can be proud of.
My opinionated summary: Don't "dumb down" the sport just because there are some who are not willing to put in the work to achieve high levels or want to concentrate and succeed in/on other sports & activities.
In regards to a state holding an invitational at the same time as the National match .... GREAT idea, but I think you would see an ever greater disparity at that match.
.... for example, my oldest daughter shoots an Anschutz 1912 rifle and has fired a 572/600-33x as a PR. Pretty much a top of the line rifle, gear & ammo. If I hand her a $300 Marlin and cheap ammo she can easily fire 550 .... ditch her clothing and it only drops to about 540 ... a kid practicing a few weekends over the year will struggle to make 400 (on the very talented side) ..... it ain't the gear, it's the level of commitment .... or do we also limit the practice time??? ........
4-H Slogan: "Learn by Doing"
4-H Colors: Green symbolizes springtime, life & youth
White symbolizes purity and high ideals
4-H Motto: "To Make the Best Better"
A competition is just that .... a competition .... and since we are running by NGB rules (Air & Smallbore Rifle specifically), equipment is indeed part of the game .... If you think it is ALL of it, I disagree ..... hard work and practice are at least 90%.
(I have a (4-H) shooter that took a bronze in the JOSC last week with an inexpensive club rifle .... it ain't the equipment ... it's the work she put into her training)
If you look at the other areas of 4-H ... livestock (especially steers & pigs), rodeo, the initial investments are at least as high as shooting sports and are recurring year after year .... competition in those areas, I'll propose, is at a much higher & emotional level, and is taken for granted and accepted. If you showed up to one of those events with only one or two weekends of practice, I'll opine it could be very hazardous.
While I'll admit, I've only been to one 4-H SS Nationals, from what I've seen, a majority of the kids are wholly unpreprepared for the competition in terms of 1) the knowledge of the rules (it is THEIR responsibility ... not daddy's, mommy's or the coach's) ; and 2) level of competency as determined by the amount of hours they put in via practice & training.
I do not subscribe to the practice of dumbing down of any competition .... whether it be for grades or medals or life in general. (One reason I'm disgusted with the "Track Meet" type of scoring now used .... it rewards mediocrity) My opinion .... let the kids that have worked hard shine.
The (good) reason for using NGB rules where possible is that fewer "local interpretations" are possible unless specifically written out in the programs (synopsis). I don't agree with some of them, but at least all who study them (i.e. #1 in above paragraph) know what to expect when they show up at the match.
Kids that want to learn gun safety and compete at a basic level can do so in a few weekends. However, we in the USA have many examples of 4-H shooters who wanted to aspire to more and have gone onto higher levels of competition and success, and we are proud of them.
I'll take a kid as far as I am capable and then happily pass them off to those that can take them farther ..... if they so desire. I know that there are many activities that compete for the attention of youth. I encourage my project members to be the best they can be at what they want to do and explain to them that doing 20 projects/sports is probably not the way to achieve that.
My "kids" know that they can come talk to me and tell me they really want to concentrate on another project, and I'll not be mad at them ... all I ask is that they work as hard in that project as they have in shooting, and they are ALWAYS welcome to come in at anytime and shoot. It's for their lifetime skills that they can be proud of.
My opinionated summary: Don't "dumb down" the sport just because there are some who are not willing to put in the work to achieve high levels or want to concentrate and succeed in/on other sports & activities.
In regards to a state holding an invitational at the same time as the National match .... GREAT idea, but I think you would see an ever greater disparity at that match.
.... for example, my oldest daughter shoots an Anschutz 1912 rifle and has fired a 572/600-33x as a PR. Pretty much a top of the line rifle, gear & ammo. If I hand her a $300 Marlin and cheap ammo she can easily fire 550 .... ditch her clothing and it only drops to about 540 ... a kid practicing a few weekends over the year will struggle to make 400 (on the very talented side) ..... it ain't the gear, it's the level of commitment .... or do we also limit the practice time??? ........
4-H Slogan: "Learn by Doing"
4-H Colors: Green symbolizes springtime, life & youth
White symbolizes purity and high ideals
4-H Motto: "To Make the Best Better"
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SD
It's always the "buts" that get seen in the crowd. :)
I agree that hard work not equipment makes the difference. I agree that a competition is just that a competition.
I also agree that most of the kids are underprepared for the 4H national match. And that begs the question as to why? For the most part, state matches are something much more focused for example in air rifle 4Hers shoot just a 3P match, nothing else. Most states have their match in March or April. So then turning around and then shooting a national match in June that is a 3P plus match is a push. Getting equipment and then a place to practice and a coach who knows something about the new course of fire is, well, not going to happen. I know you are going to say that the states need to change so they can have it so they can make the national match. And that's where you missed the point of my earlier post.
I say all this trying to get you to understand that your (and others) thinking that the national 4H match needs to equal olympic quality. Why? There are other avenues open to kids that what to compete at that level. But there is none (at least in the midwest) as active as 4H about teaching kids the basics of shooting.
There will always be a wide margin between those who work hard and those that just pull the trigger. But when you were at the national match, were the kids having fun? That is what it is about. I agree that mediocracy is not something to strive for. But not everyone is olympic caliber either and they deserve the chance to learn how to safely participate in the shooting sports. Not everyone who plays golf plays so they can be the next Tiger Woods.
I personally wish the national match would reflect the state matches. "But" then again there is to much sponsorship for that to happen.
I agree that hard work not equipment makes the difference. I agree that a competition is just that a competition.
I also agree that most of the kids are underprepared for the 4H national match. And that begs the question as to why? For the most part, state matches are something much more focused for example in air rifle 4Hers shoot just a 3P match, nothing else. Most states have their match in March or April. So then turning around and then shooting a national match in June that is a 3P plus match is a push. Getting equipment and then a place to practice and a coach who knows something about the new course of fire is, well, not going to happen. I know you are going to say that the states need to change so they can have it so they can make the national match. And that's where you missed the point of my earlier post.
I say all this trying to get you to understand that your (and others) thinking that the national 4H match needs to equal olympic quality. Why? There are other avenues open to kids that what to compete at that level. But there is none (at least in the midwest) as active as 4H about teaching kids the basics of shooting.
There will always be a wide margin between those who work hard and those that just pull the trigger. But when you were at the national match, were the kids having fun? That is what it is about. I agree that mediocracy is not something to strive for. But not everyone is olympic caliber either and they deserve the chance to learn how to safely participate in the shooting sports. Not everyone who plays golf plays so they can be the next Tiger Woods.
I personally wish the national match would reflect the state matches. "But" then again there is to much sponsorship for that to happen.
I try to stress to all my shooters .... from the casual once per month kids, to the three times per week shooters, that this sport, as in life , is a matter of priorities.
The shooters that just want to come in and learn gun safety and a bit about marksmanship know that I am there if they want to progress in this area. That is a commitment I made in signing up for theis "4-H Project Leader" thing. I've been the only one at a few of the practices .... it happens .... there is always something constructive to do.... repairing gear or pellet testing rifles.
I'm there to take them as far as I can, and then find/create the opportunity for others to push them a bit further.
We don't shoot seasonally, we shoot all year round .... we take time off for the county fair (we gotta give up our range for that), and most of state fair ..... maybe 4 weeks of time off. For our sporter shooters, we focus on 3-P air .... for our precision shooters - International .... we only get in the silhouette "groove" a few months before our county, then state, matches. That's pretty much the shooters preference.
Our air rifle program is our foundation that "feeds" the smallbore rifle program. That's my preference.
Nationals is, well ... Nationals. It is a prestegious event, and the kids should expect to fire against the best .... Our State and county matches are a much less competitive atmosphere (well ..... mostly, .... shotgun gets crazy serious).
At our State Air Rifle match one of the things we do is use the CMP Junior Achievement Award pins as additional awards to recognize a much wider group of shooters than just the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place awards. If you have not seen them, go to the back of the CMP rules - 3-P Air, and think about these awards .... they are only $1.00 each, so it is easy to give these out.
The NRA I think has it right when it views the different types of "teachers" in this sport.
There are "Instructors" which teach the basic safety and marksmanship skills.
There are also "Coaches" who train the "athletes" for competitions.
Many of us are both types, some are only one .... is that bad? .... No. But to prepare the kids for the Nationals (4-H, CMP, USAS, etc) kids will need some type of coaching. I believe that is is the answer to your question "as to why?" That is another commitment a leader might need to make to have a team or individual perform well at nationals. The Level-1 coach school is a great way to pick up some of these techniques.
I don't think states need to change, I think the Instructors/Coaches, as well as the shooters, need to have realistic expectations of what they will be able to achieve, based on their level of work put into it and knowledge of the technical aspects of the sport.
Simply, the more they know .... AND .... the more they are willing to work, they will be able to expect more out of their performance.
It's not just rifle either .... we have kids show up at our county/state contests that have only fired archery indoors at a 20 yard range ... how well they do when they first see at 60yd target outdoors in a breeze can be imagined.
** I've educated myself (the USAS/NRA/CMP coach schools) to where I think I have a pretty decent team and shooters.
** The NM FNRA is a VERY youth oriented state committee. I'm not sure how it's done in other states, but here in NM every banquet has a seat (and a vote) on the committee. Talk to your state rep about either getting on a banquet committee, or better yet offer to host a banquet and form a committee. Is it a bit of work .... yes, but having a say where funds get distributed is worth it. Do I get everything I want? .... No, but for the most part I get what I need
When you have a bit of success, it can breed growth. I now have another parent helping me out that is also a coach .... he's begun to educate himself, and when I can't be there he is ... we help each other out and as we have different styles with the kids, some respond to him and some respond to me ... it gets exciting ...
Hopefully, we'll see you in Grand Island!
The shooters that just want to come in and learn gun safety and a bit about marksmanship know that I am there if they want to progress in this area. That is a commitment I made in signing up for theis "4-H Project Leader" thing. I've been the only one at a few of the practices .... it happens .... there is always something constructive to do.... repairing gear or pellet testing rifles.
I'm there to take them as far as I can, and then find/create the opportunity for others to push them a bit further.
We don't shoot seasonally, we shoot all year round .... we take time off for the county fair (we gotta give up our range for that), and most of state fair ..... maybe 4 weeks of time off. For our sporter shooters, we focus on 3-P air .... for our precision shooters - International .... we only get in the silhouette "groove" a few months before our county, then state, matches. That's pretty much the shooters preference.
Our air rifle program is our foundation that "feeds" the smallbore rifle program. That's my preference.
Nationals is, well ... Nationals. It is a prestegious event, and the kids should expect to fire against the best .... Our State and county matches are a much less competitive atmosphere (well ..... mostly, .... shotgun gets crazy serious).
At our State Air Rifle match one of the things we do is use the CMP Junior Achievement Award pins as additional awards to recognize a much wider group of shooters than just the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place awards. If you have not seen them, go to the back of the CMP rules - 3-P Air, and think about these awards .... they are only $1.00 each, so it is easy to give these out.
The NRA I think has it right when it views the different types of "teachers" in this sport.
There are "Instructors" which teach the basic safety and marksmanship skills.
There are also "Coaches" who train the "athletes" for competitions.
Many of us are both types, some are only one .... is that bad? .... No. But to prepare the kids for the Nationals (4-H, CMP, USAS, etc) kids will need some type of coaching. I believe that is is the answer to your question "as to why?" That is another commitment a leader might need to make to have a team or individual perform well at nationals. The Level-1 coach school is a great way to pick up some of these techniques.
I don't think states need to change, I think the Instructors/Coaches, as well as the shooters, need to have realistic expectations of what they will be able to achieve, based on their level of work put into it and knowledge of the technical aspects of the sport.
Simply, the more they know .... AND .... the more they are willing to work, they will be able to expect more out of their performance.
It's not just rifle either .... we have kids show up at our county/state contests that have only fired archery indoors at a 20 yard range ... how well they do when they first see at 60yd target outdoors in a breeze can be imagined.
** We shoot in a tin shed that the fairboard lets us use and keep clean .... we're very lucky there.Getting equipment and then a place to practice and a coach who knows something about the new course of fire is, well, not going to happen.
** I've educated myself (the USAS/NRA/CMP coach schools) to where I think I have a pretty decent team and shooters.
** The NM FNRA is a VERY youth oriented state committee. I'm not sure how it's done in other states, but here in NM every banquet has a seat (and a vote) on the committee. Talk to your state rep about either getting on a banquet committee, or better yet offer to host a banquet and form a committee. Is it a bit of work .... yes, but having a say where funds get distributed is worth it. Do I get everything I want? .... No, but for the most part I get what I need
When you have a bit of success, it can breed growth. I now have another parent helping me out that is also a coach .... he's begun to educate himself, and when I can't be there he is ... we help each other out and as we have different styles with the kids, some respond to him and some respond to me ... it gets exciting ...
Hopefully, we'll see you in Grand Island!