Hi everyone,
I've been shooting NRA prone for 2 years now, achieved my Master classification and I'm wondering what degree of accuracy can humanely be achieved.
Essentially I want to know what size groups the best prone shooters can shoot? I realize its perfectly possible to clean an A-51 target with a 10mm ten ring but the group does not have to be under 10mm to do that.
Rimfire benchrest shooters can’t seem to produce one bullet hole groups approximately 5.5mm very frequently. With this in mind would it be unreasonable to expect yourself to shoot lets say 6 to 7mm groups in position?
How do you truly determine what it is that is affecting your groups the most, wind, ammo, hold, your mind?
Brian
Best Possible Prone Groups?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
If you do the math, you can technically clean an international target with a 21mm group (10mm ring, 5.5mm round). Obviously we all know we can do better than that.
A group where the centers of all shots are inside the ten ring is a 15.5mm group. Again I know we can do better than that. I feel this is also the rough size of the test group you get from Anschutz with most rifles. Those groups are shot with the action pretty much bolted down.
A one hole group is 5.5mm. I've had a couple of groups from time to time that you couldn't fit a Bic ball point pen through, but I consider them exceptional.
A group which fits inside the 10 ring would be 10mm. These aren't exceptional groups, but still pretty darn good, certainly above average. i have sometime thought of this as the line where anything smaller starts to use a hint of luck in the ammo that is out of human control.
So 6mm is a one hole group, 10mm is where things start getting our of your control, and 15mm is pretty easy. I'd have 10mm as my goal size. That technically leaves you an 11mm margin of error for an errant round of ammo.
As for human ability, I've shot 106 strings dry firing on noptel on good days.
A group where the centers of all shots are inside the ten ring is a 15.5mm group. Again I know we can do better than that. I feel this is also the rough size of the test group you get from Anschutz with most rifles. Those groups are shot with the action pretty much bolted down.
A one hole group is 5.5mm. I've had a couple of groups from time to time that you couldn't fit a Bic ball point pen through, but I consider them exceptional.
A group which fits inside the 10 ring would be 10mm. These aren't exceptional groups, but still pretty darn good, certainly above average. i have sometime thought of this as the line where anything smaller starts to use a hint of luck in the ammo that is out of human control.
So 6mm is a one hole group, 10mm is where things start getting our of your control, and 15mm is pretty easy. I'd have 10mm as my goal size. That technically leaves you an 11mm margin of error for an errant round of ammo.
As for human ability, I've shot 106 strings dry firing on noptel on good days.
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Guest
Hi Brian, take a look at this page, its the result from the ISAS indoor competison 2008 - prone match. Click on the pdf document to the right to see the shooters 10 shot groups. This might give you a ideer of the how the best prone shooters in the world shoots.
http://www.wsb-home.de/isas08/listen.php?d=1.80.10
Cheers, Ken
http://www.wsb-home.de/isas08/listen.php?d=1.80.10
Cheers, Ken
60 shots prone
51 *
Cheers, Ken ;-)
Cheers, Ken ;-)
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Guest
Not 100% sure but I think this competition was shot at 50M indoors. ColinAnonymous wrote:Hi Brian, take a look at this page, its the result from the ISAS indoor competison 2008 - prone match. Click on the pdf document to the right to see the shooters 10 shot groups. This might give you a ideer of the how the best prone shooters in the world shoots.
http://www.wsb-home.de/isas08/listen.php?d=1.80.10
Cheers, Ken
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Guest
results isas 2009 prone
Here is the results from 2009
http://www.wsb-home.de/isas09/listen.php?d=1.80.10
And yes this is a indoor competition.
http://www.wsb-home.de/isas09/listen.php?d=1.80.10
And yes this is a indoor competition.
Indoor?!!
So this was an INDOOR 50 meter shoot?! Interesting. I would have thought that the scores would be higher - and they were. A 596 to make the final seems reasonable. BUT...by looking at the groupings of the top performers, even the best of these shooters have very few groups inside the 12-14 mm range. THAT is a surprise. My guess would have been that, without wind or mirage, these groups could have been far tighter on average. Was it cold? March in Germany can be a touch chilly.
The odd thing is that the top Finals scores were pretty darn good. Was it possibly warmer by then? I'd love to know what the temperature was. If anybody knows, send it along. Otherwise I'll have to call Vinni and Josh and find out what the heck was going on! :)
Bp
The odd thing is that the top Finals scores were pretty darn good. Was it possibly warmer by then? I'd love to know what the temperature was. If anybody knows, send it along. Otherwise I'll have to call Vinni and Josh and find out what the heck was going on! :)
Bp
Notes from A buddy
Brian,
I retrieved an email from Eric U. where we were discussing noptel analysis and live fire shooting. On the noptel, he had tons of 106+ strings and felt that was about average. He knew he was doing well when he shot over 107. He knew he was stinking when he shot in the 105s and below.
His comment was that since the beginning of the year, he had fired 6 perfect 600s in practice. And right before the fall selections (in which he shot two more 600s), his live-fire strings were higher than his average noptel results. My guess is that meant he was routinely shooting around 106.0 to 107.0 strings. Not sure what that equates to in terms of group diameters, but I would think they would be in the range of 11-12 mm at the most. He also mentioned that this was the first time in his life that his live-fire strings either matched or out-performed his live fire strings. Interesting.
Bp
I retrieved an email from Eric U. where we were discussing noptel analysis and live fire shooting. On the noptel, he had tons of 106+ strings and felt that was about average. He knew he was doing well when he shot over 107. He knew he was stinking when he shot in the 105s and below.
His comment was that since the beginning of the year, he had fired 6 perfect 600s in practice. And right before the fall selections (in which he shot two more 600s), his live-fire strings were higher than his average noptel results. My guess is that meant he was routinely shooting around 106.0 to 107.0 strings. Not sure what that equates to in terms of group diameters, but I would think they would be in the range of 11-12 mm at the most. He also mentioned that this was the first time in his life that his live-fire strings either matched or out-performed his live fire strings. Interesting.
Bp
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Guest 66
Touche 66!
I think it also bears mentioning that, as we all know, it is possible (and more probable) that the groups a person shoots are not necessarily in the exact center of the bull each time. For instance, if the wind is gently moving from left to right, I'd be very comfortable with a grouping (about a 10.4-10.5 at 3:30-4 o'clock. If the wind drops off, I might only be looking at a 10.3 at 9:30 or so. Many of my best groups are purposefully NOT in the center so they will not show high string values on the electronic systems when, in fact, most of the bullets followed each other through the same hole. THOSE strings would be extremely tight - prob in the vicinity of a 107+ average. Granted this happens infrequently. More with 5 shot groups than 10. But, to answer BJ's initial query, it is easy to see that some ridiculously tight groups can be obtained.
Disclaimer! :) Obviously, if you are in a Final, you need to treat the situation somewhat differently. You have to know that the freaks at the Unit are sighted in dead center and they are shading if conditions call for it! If you score less than a 104, you will have trouble making ground on anyone. Here, group size means NOTHING. You must KNOW how to hit the center every time.
Bp
I think it also bears mentioning that, as we all know, it is possible (and more probable) that the groups a person shoots are not necessarily in the exact center of the bull each time. For instance, if the wind is gently moving from left to right, I'd be very comfortable with a grouping (about a 10.4-10.5 at 3:30-4 o'clock. If the wind drops off, I might only be looking at a 10.3 at 9:30 or so. Many of my best groups are purposefully NOT in the center so they will not show high string values on the electronic systems when, in fact, most of the bullets followed each other through the same hole. THOSE strings would be extremely tight - prob in the vicinity of a 107+ average. Granted this happens infrequently. More with 5 shot groups than 10. But, to answer BJ's initial query, it is easy to see that some ridiculously tight groups can be obtained.
Disclaimer! :) Obviously, if you are in a Final, you need to treat the situation somewhat differently. You have to know that the freaks at the Unit are sighted in dead center and they are shading if conditions call for it! If you score less than a 104, you will have trouble making ground on anyone. Here, group size means NOTHING. You must KNOW how to hit the center every time.
Bp
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Guest
Temperature
Hi Ken,
So...it was around 64 degrees. That's still a little on the chilly side for some. I would imagine that the European shooting season is spring and summer like our own and that ammo was tested for those seasons. UNLESS...Do our friends overseas shoot fairly cold matches during winter? And would they have tested ammo specifically for those conditions? Ken?
Bp
So...it was around 64 degrees. That's still a little on the chilly side for some. I would imagine that the European shooting season is spring and summer like our own and that ammo was tested for those seasons. UNLESS...Do our friends overseas shoot fairly cold matches during winter? And would they have tested ammo specifically for those conditions? Ken?
Bp
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Philadelphia
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Re: Best Possible Prone Groups?
Interesting question and something I've also put some thought to (with the disclaimer that I'm a pistol guy but the same concepts apply).BJ wrote:I've been shooting NRA prone for 2 years now, achieved my Master classification and I'm wondering what degree of accuracy can humanely be achieved.
With the gun bolted down properly on a calm day, it will group to its mechanical ability. With the gun in skilled human hands, from a statistical standpoint some groups will be somewhat worse than mechanical accuracy (of course) but some groups will be better. I have found that it is possible to outshoot the gun if enough groups are fired. The real question may be what degree of accuracy can be consistently achieved?
As scores trend toward routinely perfect for the field, is it hard to say what's really being measured on any particular card?
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Guest
Update :-)
Small update from my training indoor 50m.
600/53
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0ByP ... OWE3&hl=da
Cheers, Ken
http://kennethnielsen.blogspot.com
600/53
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0ByP ... OWE3&hl=da
Cheers, Ken
http://kennethnielsen.blogspot.com
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Telecomtodd
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